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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 03:32 pm
@parados,
parados, I agree with your opinions about the value of CEO's who have little or no knowledge about macroeconomics, and how effective the stimulus plan will pan out in the long term.

Here's how I see the "big" picture on the stimulus plan: a) our government had to save the banks and finance companies, because without them our economy would die a natural death (no credit, no economy: Econ 101), b) some of the best financial gurus (who has real world experience) are working with Obama, c) helping restore our country's infrastructure and assisting states with funding are both good actions, because all citizens pay federal income taxes, and d) I only disagree with all the social programs being proposed by the Obama administration at a time when income tax revenue continues to suffer. I would have preferred to see them improve social programs more slowly as jobs increased and defaults on home ownership ceases. However, I agree with the expansion of unemployment insurance for people who have lost jobs; they must still feed their families and try to keep their shelter. (A little bit of conservative compassion.)
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 03:55 pm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Stöwer_Titanic.jpg

"we wouldn't be in this mess if you had just run into the iceberg again, like i said to !!"
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 04:54 pm
Announcing a GOP comeback, Steele has announced that GOP change for the future of America is being delivered in a tea bag.

Steel said: "The first turning point is this: Today we are declaring an end to the era of Republicans looking backward....The era of apologizing for Republican mistakes of the past is now officially over. It is done. The time for trying to fix or focus on the past has ended....The Republican Party is again going to emerge as the party of new ideas. "

Instead of "looking backward," Steele recommended that the GOP emerge as the party of new ideas! How does he suggest the GOP accomplish this mission? By looking backward and recycling old ideas. Here's his strategy:

First: The GOP must launch a "dignified, classy" attack on President Obama by emphasizing that Democrats are shabby and classless. The GOP approach "will be a very sharp and marked contrast to the shabby and classless way that the Democrats and the far left spoke of President Bush."

Second: The GOP must recycle the timeless anecdotes made popular by Edmund Burke, William F. Buckley, and Ronald Reagan, and deliver them for public consumption in a tea bag! That way, no one can accuse the GOP of looking backward or recycling old ideas. The GOP will be the forward looking, new idea party!


Wow. That's a truly innovative plan!



Link to Steel's speech
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 04:58 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
Smile

Seriously, I have read analysis of the Titanic that had the people and crew not attempted to micromanage the Titantic disaster and rather focused on the greatest benefit to all, they could have used everything on the Titanic that would float, pitched it in the water, lashed it together with whatever, and built enough such crude rafts that could have saved most for the few hours that it took the Carpathia to reach them.

Also, I have read opinions that had the Titanic not taken the ill fated measures to attempt to avoid the iceberg and had rather just plunged ahead and accepted the consequences of hitting it head on, the impact would likely have not flooded enough compartments to sink the ship.

The implied moral of course is that sometimes its best just to take the medicine, get it over with, and thereby minimize the consequences.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 04:59 pm
@Debra Law,
Quote:
The GOP approach "will be a very sharp and marked contrast to the shabby and classless way that the Democrats and the far left spoke of President Bush."


It's hardly possible to comment on a piece of excrement in a classy fashion. Wait a second, I just did.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 05:00 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra, I started this thread on Steele's speech: http://able2know.org/topic/132523-1

He spoke about "real solutions" several times during his speech, but failed to name one. Typical conservative sales pitch without any "real solutions."

All Steele did was contradict his own talk about "dignified classy" attack on Obama, and attacked everything - without providing any alternative solutions for the pickle our country is now in. He forgot to mention that the current financial crisis began during Bush's watch.

They know how to destroy and talk about solutions but provide none.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 05:12 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
The GOP approach "will be a very sharp and marked contrast to the shabby and classless way that the Democrats and the far left spoke of President Bush."


It's hardly possible to comment on a piece of excrement in a classy fashion. Wait a second, I just did.


Yes. According to the "conservative" GOP Orwellian doublespeak manual, calling the opponent's comment "a piece of excrement" is a dignified and classy thing to do. Similarly, torturing a detainee to obtain a false confession to further a GOP administration agenda to commence a war of aggression is the same as treating the detainee with dignity and class. The GOP is the party of humanitarians, as well as the party of new ideas.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 05:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
All Steele did was contradict his own talk about "dignified classy" attack on Obama, and attacked everything - without providing any alternative solutions for the pickle our country is now in....


But, you failed to reference page 666 of the "conservative" Orwellian doublespeak manual wherein the word "contradiction" has been redefined to mean "noncontradictory." That's the same page wherein the word "torture" has been redefined to mean "not torture." That way, when Bush took the world stage and announced that "we don't torture," Bush was telling the truth!
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 05:19 pm
michael, michael, michael...

the days of apologizing for republican mistakes haven't even started yet. and they will end when the majority of americans say so.

until then, don't quit your day job, kid.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 05:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
He forgot to mention that the current financial crisis began during Bush's watch.


That's the whole point of their GOP "don't look back" campaign. They're drawing a curtain closed on that piece of embarrassing history and refuse to talk about it. However, at the same time that they're trying to sell themselves as the party of new ideas, DTOM has pointed out that they're demanding that our nation again crash the ship into the same iceberg because doing so was such a great idea the first time they recommended that course of action.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 05:51 pm
@parados,
I didn't find anything in your link to support your statement. Perhaps you could cut and paste the part you intended to be pertinent? I don't know a lot about my sources other than the Hoover Institute members have extremely impressive credentials for their fields and my finance institution guy not only has impressive credentials, but he wouldn't have gotten to the position he is in without having a pretty good grasp on how the economy works. I do recall, I think, that he was an Obama supporter which is why I was amused when Cyclop so quickly popped off accusing him of being a rightwing source and used him as an excuse for Cyclop to not defend his own grand pronouncements. Smile

However, what evidence do you have that people spent their stimulus checks and that it had any significant effect on the economy? And what long term good does it do to spend government money that doesn't do anything to inspire or encourage increased and sustainable production, hiring, etc.?

Quote:
Surveys find most Americans will use stimulus rebate for debt, savings, not spending . . . .

Nearly three-quarters of those asked on both surveys said they will either pay down debt or save any money sent to them as part of an economic stimulus package. The remaining quarter indicated they would spend the money, which is the goal of the program.

"Don't expect a big bang from the tax rebate if only about a quarter of that gets actually spent," said Michael Niemira, chief economist at the International Council of Shopping Centers, which commissioned a survey by Opinion Research.

"That's $25 billion, not $100 billion, and it's not clear how quickly it will be spent," he said. What's more, money that is directed toward lenders, be it to pay off mortgages or credit-card bills, is money that's already been spent. In other words, it's already done its job in helping the economy.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-say-they-will-pay-down-debt-or-save-any-stimulus-rebate
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 05:55 pm
Unemployment Rates, Income tax Rates, Revenues, Outlays, Deficits, and GDP, for
Carter, Reagan, Bush41, Clinton, & Bush 43.


RELEVANT LINKS:
ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.txt
Unemployed Table 1942 to 2008
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2051527/posts
Highest and lowest Income Tax Rates 1913 to 2007
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/pdf/hist.pdf
Table 1.1 Summary of Budget Receipts Outlays Surpluses or Deficits, 1789-2012 (in millions of dollars)
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TablePrint.asp?FirstYear=1965&LastYear=2008&Freq=Year&SelectedTable=5&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&MaxValue=14412.8&MaxChars=8&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Legal=&Land=
Table 1.1.5. Gross Domestic Product
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
Surplus or Deficit

CARTER: results at end of 1976 and 1980
Total Employed increased from 88.752 million to 99.302 million.
Percent Population Employed increased from 56.8% to 59.2%.
Unemployment decreased from 7.7% to 7.1%.
Income tax rates constant 14% min & 70% max to 14% min & 70% max.
Revenues increased from 298.1 billion to 517.1 billion.
Outlays increased from 371.8 billion to 590.9 billion.
Deficits increased from 73.7 billion to 73.8 billion.
GDP increased from 1,825.3 billion to 2,789.5 billion.

REAGAN: results at end of 1980 and 1988
Total Employed increased from 99.302 million to 114.968 million.Percent Population Employed increased from 59.2% to 62.3%.
Unemployment decreased from 7.1% to 5.5%.
Income tax rates decreased from 14% min & 70% max to 15% min & 33% max.
Revenues increased from 517.1 billion to 909.3 billion.
Outlays increased from 590.9 billion to 1,064.5 billion.
Deficits increased from 73.8 billion to 155.2 billion.
GDP increased from 2,789.5 billion to 5,103.8 billion.

BUSH 41: results at end of 1988 and 1992
Total Employed increased from 114.968 million to 118.492 million.
Percent Population Employed decreased from 62.3% to 61.5%.
Unemployment increased from 5.5% to 7.5%.
Income tax rates decreased from 15% min & 33% max to 15% min & 31% max.
Revenues increased from 909.3 billion to 1,091.3 billion.
Outlays increased from 1,064.5 billion to 1,381.6 billion.
Deficits increased from 155.2 billion in 1988, to 290.3 billion in 1992.
GDP increased from 5,103.8 billion in 1988, to 6,337.7 billion in 1992.


CLINTON: results at end of 1992 and 2000
Total Employed increased from 118.492 million to 136.891 million.
Percent Population Employed increased from 61.5% to 64.4%.
Unemployment decreased from 7.5% to 4.0%.
Income tax rates increased from 15% min & 31% max to 15% min & 39.6% max.
Revenues increased from 1,091.3 billion to 2,025.5 billion.
Outlays increased from 1,381.6 billion to 1,789.2 billion.
Deficits DECREASED from 290.3 billion to 236.2 billion SURPLUS.
GDP increased from 6,337.7 billion to 9,817.0 billion.

BUSH 43: results at end of 2000 and 2008
Total Employed increased from 136.891 million to 145.362 million.
Percent Population Employed decreased from 64.4% to 62.2%.
Unemployment increased from 4.0% to 7.2%.
Income tax rates decreased from 15% min & 39.6% max to 10% min & 35% max .
Revenues increased from 2,025.5 billion to 2,524.3 billion.
Outlays increased from 1,789.2 billion to 2,982.9 billion.
Deficits increased from 236.2 billion to 458.5 billion.
GDP increased from 9,817.0 billion to 14,280.7 billion.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 06:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I didn't find anything in your link to support your statement. Perhaps you could cut and paste the part you intended to be pertinent? I don't know a lot about my sources other than the Hoover Institute members have extremely impressive credentials for their fields and my finance institution guy not only has impressive credentials, but he wouldn't have gotten to the position he is in without having a pretty good grasp on how the economy works. I do recall, I think, that he was an Obama supporter which is why I was amused when Cyclop so quickly popped off accusing him of being a rightwing source and used him as an excuse for Cyclop to not defend his own grand pronouncements. Smile


I don't have anything to defend; you still refuse to answer a simple question about your earlier, foolish statement. And now you are doing exactly what I predicted you would do: change the conversation to a discussion of other matters, rather than admit that the plans you were advocating on the last page were foolish in the extreme.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 06:31 pm
The Skewing of America: Disparities in Wealth and Income

by Ronald D. Pasquariello

Mr. Pasquariello is senior fellow at the Center for Theology and Public Policy in Washington, D.C. This article appeared in the Christian Century, February 18, 1987, p. 164. Copyright by the Christian Century Foundation and used by permission. Current articles and subscription information can be found at www.christiancentury.org. This material was prepared for Religion Online by Ted & Winnie Brock.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Federal Reserve Board reported some staggering news last summer: one-half of 1 per cent of American families (just 419,590 out of a total of about 87 million households) possess 35 per cent of this country’s privately held wealth. As it turns out, the board had to rescind its study because a major error had been made. The new results are not yet available; they will not be as drastic, though they will show that the gap between the rich and the rest of us -- stable until recently -- has widened. Private wealth is the value of an individual’s or household’s possessions. It includes real estate, homes, cars, stocks, trusts, savings and retirement accounts. Wealth is not income. Wealth is capital, stored-up economic power; it tends to be stable, and to grow. It is the cushion against the shocks of a mercurial economy. Income, on the other hand, is constituted primarily by wages and salaries (it also includes interest and dividends) , and offers only as much economic stability as the job market does -- which is very little.

The wealth concentrated in the hands of the very rich includes assets that confer economic power. In 1972, the top 5 per cent of the population held 66.7 per cent of the corporate stock and 93.6 per cent of state and local bonds. This disparity, which has since widened, suggests that the very rich can control the decisions related to corporate and municipal assets. The net worth of most Americans does not amount to much. Most families’ forms of wealth are limited to homes, automobiles, furnishings, appliances and checking and savings accounts. For most, the family residence is the principal form of wealth. Except for money that may be raised by second mortgages, residences are not an available asset for most families. Furthermore, the value of a residence is subject to the capriciousness of the housing market. The fragile economic situation of most Americans has been starkly evident in communities where plants have closed or moved away. Many homeowners have been left job-less, with houses that are unsalable. As for savings, the average American has at most $5,000 -- hardly enough to support a family after unemployment benefits run out.

Within the past decade, the median family income has leveled off and begun to decline. In 1979, 50 per cent of two-parent families had an income of $26,299. Today 50 per cent earn $24,556 or less. (There is a similar decrease for single-parent families.) The distribution of income among families has also become more unequal in recent years. The share of total income going to the bottom 60 per cent of American families has declined, and the share going to the next 20 per cent has increased negligibly, while the share going to the top 20 per cent has increased by 2.5 per cent.

The major reason for the decline in family income is the decline in real wages: most incomes are from wages. and average earnings have declined since peaking in 1973. Weekly wages have declined by 14.5 per cent, hourly wages by 10.1 per cent. Behind this decline is the loss of middle-income jobs as a result of the rise of the service economy and the failure of the minimum wage to keep pace with inflation.

According to statistics supplied by the Economic Policy Institute, a 25-year-old male worker in 1953 or 1963 could expect to more than double his income over a period of ten years. But in 1973, a 25-year-old male could expect a mere 16 per cent increase in income by 1983. The average male who was 40 in 1973 actually saw a 14 per cent decline in his income over ten years.

Practically all the households with annual incomes of more than $25,000 in 1983 were those of working couples. The traditional middle-class family with one wage-earner is no longer as economically feasible as it once was. Even in two-earner families incomes can stagnate, for women’s wages still remain low relative to men’s (so a woman’s salary does not necessarily double the family income)

All of these figures indicate why there has been a decline in the proportional size of the middle class. Between 1973 and 1985, the proportion of American families with incomes between $20,000 and $50,000 dropped 5 percent. The sector of families earning less than $20,000 grew 3.4 per cent. The number with incomes greater than $50,000 grew, but by only 1.8 per cent. Meanwhile, poverty has been increasing among low-income persons. In 1978 about 24.5 million Americans lived below the poverty line, but by 1984 the number had climbed to 33.7 million. Moreover, the number of persons who work but are still unable to escape poverty has grown dramatically in recent years. The number of those aged 22 to 64 who work but are still poor has increased by more than 60 per cent since 1978, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

Are there any specific forces responsible for this situation? For instance, what is the role of the current administration; is it to blame? The Wall Street Journal put it this way: "The Reagan administration’s policies haven’t narrowed the gap between rich and poor. The tax cuts in the first five years of Mr. Reagan’s presidency favored the wealthy: reducing capital gains taxes benefited those with capital. Government programs aimed exclusively at the poor were trimmed, but others that help a broader group -- Social Security and veterans benefits, for instance -- weren’t" (September 22, 1986).

Though the skewing of America began before President Reagan took office, his policies have markedly accelerated the process. The Congressional Budget Office has indicated that budget and tax changes enacted from 1981 to 1983 have taken $20 billion from those with incomes below $20,000 a year and brought about a $35 billion increase for households with incomes of $80,000 or more.

*************
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 10:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
All you have to do is click the link to the tables Fox. Data is data and the data shows precisely what I said.


From table 1.3.
Personal consumption 2008 q1-q4 growth
... 0.61 .... 0.87 .... -2.75 .... -2.99
personal consumption in dollars 2008 q1-4
8316.1 ...8341.3 ... 8260.6 ...8170.5



The stimulus checks came out in May, June...|
We see a slight increase in personal spending during the time that the checks come out then a rather large drop in the quarter after that. The drop from the second to the 4th quarter is larger than the total of the checks.

The "prediction" of what will happen pales in comparison to what DID happen. Why don't you find out what that economist said AFTER the time period rather than what he predicted? Hmmmm.. funny how those people make predictions then disappear when their prediction isn't true.

But a story AFTER the stimulus says..
July retail sales show stimulus fading
Quote:
July’s results met ICSC’s projections for a 2 percent to 3 percent gain, but the pace was much slower than the 4.2 percent gain in June, which was helped by a boost from the stimulus checks. But ICSC’s chief economist Michael P. Niemira said that the July sales saw a wider gap between low-price operators and mall-based apparel stores.
It's funny how Niemira didn't comment on his prediction, isn't it?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2009 12:26 am
@parados,
I don't doubt that the stimulus checks did stimulate some sales. The links I posted would suggest about $25 billion in sales IF the respondents to the poll did pay down debt or saved it as they said they would. If they spent more than they thought they would the sales would reflect that.

But the point is, that one burst of sales does not end a recession. Retailers know that the customers won't have that money to spend again the next month and thereafter until the recession ends so they don't stock a lot of extra merchandise or put on more help. Their suppliers also enjoyed a bit of an untick in their sales though less than the retailers, and they also knew they couldn't count on that the following month and thereafter until the recession ends so they don't hire extra workers or stock more raw materials.

BUT.....lowering interest rates and lowering taxes and perhaps providing some additional incentives to hire and boost productivity and suppliers and manufacturers will generally respond by being willing to take more risk. And when their workers are working they are earning and spending and retailers are restocking and the recession goes away or at least begins to weaken.

Massive Government spending is short term and unsustainable, depletes the treasury, and generally results in inflation, higher interest rates, and higher taxes to reduce developing deficits which results in a repressed economy in the private sector. Far better to encourage the private sector to work itself out of a recession.

Oh and Parados, you might want to choose a source that isn’t associated with GE as a more credible source for rebuttal. GE was also a heavy donator to the Obama campaign, a recipient of a significant chunk of TARP money, stands to benefit hugely from Obama’s cap and trade proposal, their exec was apparently exempt from wage controls he presumed to insist on others, they own NBC, MSNBC, CNBC and the exec of MSNBC sits on one of Obama’s boards after it was reported that all three organizations were under orders to report nothing negative about President Obama. In other words, it all stinks to high heaven and is likely to blow up at some point.

GE's credibility gap with investors
http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/17/news/companies/ge_walkup.fortune/index.htm


Obamagate " The tangled web of Obama, GE, Immelt, Cap & Trade, GE Healthcare and Daschle part I
May 16, 1:42 PM
http://www.examiner.com/x-9100-Boston-Conservative-Independent-Examiner~y2009m5d16-Obamagate--The-tangled-web-of-Obama-GE-Immelt-Cap--Trade-GE-Healthcare-and-Daschle-part-I
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2009 01:42 am
Advocate wrote:

Though the skewing of America began before President Reagan took office, his policies have markedly accelerated the process. The Congressional Budget Office has indicated that budget and tax changes enacted from 1981 to 1983 have taken $20 billion from those with incomes below $20,000 a year and brought about a $35 billion increase for households with incomes of $80,000 or more.

*************

This is scandalous. It must not STAND.

Professor Andrew Hacker has given us a solution in his fine book--"Money"- Pub. 1997-Scribner.

Hacker writes( P. 55)

quote

"Suppose that the highest allowable income would be $200,000...If the current incomes of all the highly affluent were reduced to $200,000, this would leave them enough to live well. No one needs more than $200,000 a year. The amount left over from the aggregate over $200,000 would be more than 300 billion. If this 300 billion were to be given to the poorest 20 percent of all housholds, they could have an annual income of close to 30,000.

Now, wouldn't that make for a better country--peaceful and content?
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2009 01:47 am
Ican wrote--
Unemployment increased from 4.0% to 7.2%.During Bush tenure--2000 to 2008.

But BO, who promised us change did not tell us that the change would raise the Unemployment Rate from 7.2% to 8.9% (AND RISING) in just four months.

Most Americans did not expect NEGATIVE change!!
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2009 01:50 am
The moronic Cicerone Imposter wrote:

parados, I agree with your opinions about the value of CEO's who have little or no knowledge about macroeconomics, and how effective the stimulus plan will pan out in the long term.

end of quote>

Does Cicerone Imposter know ANYTHING about Macroeconomics?

Read any of his flatulent nonsense and judge for yourselves.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2009 01:50 am
@genoves,
genoves wrote:

Most Americans did not expect NEGATIVE change!!


jesus. you really are a total asshole.
0 Replies
 
 

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