@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:I'd thought that I knew a bit about this period (at least, it was enough to get an university degree both in the UK as well as in Germany).
But I must have missed a lot, I suppose.
And we do have a different view, too: Bismarck is seen as THE example of a conservative politician as is especially his policy as chancellor of Prussia (and later the German Reich) - thus his nickname.
Yes, the fact you have university degrees and your area of expertise has been previously mentioned a number of times on this thread, thus my asking your opinion as to the European Left/Right scale and where American conservatism might fit (if at all) on that scale.
From the links you have provided it seems that the ECR (European Conservatives and Reformists) come the closest to the principles of the American Conservatives: Free and Fair trade, small government, individual freedom, family as bedrock of society, sovereign national state, effectively controlled immigration, and subsidiarity. This last one was surprising to find, especially with the momentum of the EU movement.
(For those just tuning in, subsidiarity is "an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority". In a governmental context this is 'states rights' or the rights of local people to handle their own affairs.)
So we do see a European Conservatism similar to ours here in America! However, it is in the distinct minority and, at this point in time, will probably not be holding any Tea Party rallies with increasing regularity very soon.
As far as us having a different view of Bismarck's political view I would have to disagree. Bismarck's (original) unification of Germany certainly could qualify him as a disciple of France’s Cardinal Richelieu
'raison d'etat', n'est-ce-pa? After all there is not much difference from the Cardinal's afore mentioned diplomatic strategy to promote France's interests and that of Bismarck's
Realpolitik regarding that of Prussia/Germany's. American patriotism is a bedrock principle of American conservatism and Bismarck's efforts here are exemplary as a conservative. So at this point we agree.
But I should point out that the phrase I used was "Bismarck's socialism". This can be viewed as at one with our former Republican MA governor Mitt Romney’s "Socialism" that we find in his signing that state's version of proto-Obamacare.
I never said Bismarck was a 'socialist' per se. However, he is credited with the world's first social insurance legislations like The Health Insurance Act of 1883, Accident Insurance in 1884, old age pensions and disability insurance in 1889 to name a few.
But perhaps we have uncovered something here:
Quote:Bismarck is seen as THE example of a conservative politician as is especially his policy as chancellor of Prussia (and later the German Reich) - thus his nickname.
So how did Bismarck view the individual rights of his (or the Kaiser's) citizens or, shall we say, subjects? We know the Iron Chancellor is credited for the creation of the German nation so surely he was a nationalist. We probably agree that because of an increasing tide of socialism, at the time, he felt it wise to head them (the socialists) off via those social programs previously noted (an example of domestic policy in line with his Realpolitik no doubt).Add to that a paucity of belief in individual rights (excepting Britain) in European history that was manifest in monarchy. Heck, even the Iron Chancellor had his Kaiser. So your description of Bismarck as THE conservative might be contrasted with which leader in Europe to his left? So let us do this: if Otto Von Bismarck was The Conservative and on the extreme Right where does this put Hitler on the European political scale? If fascists believe the state trumps individual rights and communists believe the commune overrules the importance of the individual how are Americans conservatives, believing in the primacy of the individual and his rights, to place Fascism, Communism, and Bismarck on this scale? Most importantly what, exactly, determines their left or right 'ism'? Okie and I seem to think all three with their emphasis on state over individual places all three on the left. More importantly what are the principles of both the ‘Right’ and the ‘Left’ on this scale? How is this scale determined? What are the metrics? Do these metrics measure individual freedoms or just nationalism? Or, do they measure the degree to which the state owns the means of production as opposed to recognizing the wisdom of individuals to produce the aggregate wealth of a nation? What determines a Leftist Fascist from a Rightist Fascist?
Surely you can see the source of Okie’s and my confusion. If Hitler was not on the right, regarding individual rights and the rights of those individuals to pursue their own destiny, does that make him a leftist? Alternatively, if Bismarck was THE Conservative on THE Right where would we place a Hitler on that same scale? How is the European political scale laid out? How is Hitler’s place on that scale different from Bismarck’s?
Is the extreme Left in Europe represented by Communism (and its eventual Marxist dream of
NO state) and the extreme Right represented by Bismarck's combination of Monarchy/Nationalism? Is it possible to place American conservatism and its belief in the power of the individual over the state on this scale?
Sorry for all the questions but
C.I. and
POM assure us you are the Go-To guy here.
JM
