AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@okie,

okie wrote:

Cyclops, you should know and admit that progressive is another term for an extreme liberal or leftist, perhaps even communist. Communists know they can't win elections or gain support by being honest and openly admitting they are communists or Marxists, so they have found the term "progressive" to sound better to people, so that is the preferred term they choose.

Really? So you think that e.g. the various 'progressive conservative' parties you can and could find are in reality hidden communists?

1 Reply

@JamesMorrison,

JamesMorrison wrote:

So let me ask the following question: As you and Europeans in general view it (you can qualify this differently if you wish), on the overall scale of European political thought is Fascism on the right and Communism on the left?

You may find left-Fascists as well as right-Fascists. [Nazis are on the very extreme right, though. (And I find it more than interesting that the NSDAP's demagogic gambit - referring to "Socialism" - seems to work still today ... fortunately not here, in Germany or Europe.)]
Communists are on the left, the term "conservative communists" just means that its a communist who still sticks on old communist ideas (and that may refer to different time periods as well).

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@plainoldme,

You apparently have no idea what 'leftist' means. The current Dem party supports a wide variety of Leftist positions, and progressive taxation is one of them.

A group is Leftist if it seeks to secure their right to steal wealth others earn.

A group is Rightist if seeks to secure their right to retain wealth they earn.

A group is Leftist if it seeks to interpret the Constitution as Amended according to the values of the left -- change its interpretation according to judicial fiat.

A group is Rightist if seeks to interpret the Constitution as Amended according to the values of the right -- change its interpretation only when amended in accord with its Article V.

A group is Centrist if it adopts some of these Leftist positions and some of these Rightist positions.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Really? So you think that e.g. the various 'progressive conservative' parties you can and could find are in reality hidden communists?

Of course not. Not all progressives are communists, just as not all liberals are communists, probably far from it. Here in this country, it is my opinion that progressive merely indicates a move to the left, such as more progressivity in the tax code, which means higher and higher tax rates for higher incomes, so that the wealth can be redistributed more as a final result. If taken to the extreme however, a total redistribution leads to a communist system, so some of the most extreme progressives or liberals are probably in fact believers of communism. The ultimate progressive would believe the phrase: "To each according to his need," which would be overseen by an all powerful government making things completely fair with equal or fair outcomes for everyone.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Really? So you think that e.g. the various 'progressive conservative' parties you can and could find are in reality hidden communists?

Of course not. Not all progressives are communists, just as not all liberals are communists, probably far from it. Here in this country, it is my opinion that progressive merely indicates a move to the left, such as more progressivity in the tax code, which means higher and higher tax rates for higher incomes, so that the wealth can be redistributed more as a final result. If taken to the extreme however, a total redistribution leads to a communist system, so some of the most extreme progressives or liberals are probably in fact believers of communism. The ultimate progressive would believe the phrase: "To each according to his need," which would be overseen by an all powerful government making things completely fair with equal or fair outcomes for everyone.

Well, you can see how Walter would be confused, seeing as you just said to me:

Quote:

Cyclops, you should know and admit that progressive is another term for an extreme liberal or leftist, perhaps even communist.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

JamesMorrison wrote:
So let me ask the following question: As you and Europeans in general view it (you can qualify this differently if you wish), on the overall scale of European political thought is Fascism on the right and Communism on the left?

You may find left-Fascists as well as right-Fascists. [Nazis are on the very extreme right, though.

Insteresting opinion. Can you also explain what the difference is between a left-Fascist and a right-Fascist, and why the difference defines them left or right?

Quote:

(And I find it more than interesting that the NSDAP's demagogic gambit - referring to "Socialism" - seems to work still today ... fortunately not here, in Germany or Europe.)]
Communists are on the left, the term "conservative communists" just means that its a communist who still sticks on old communist ideas (and that may refer to different time periods as well).

I actually agree with you about conservative communists, as I have read about some folks in the old Soviet Union that yearned for the good old days and wished to conserve what they had known under communism, thus they could be considered conservatives in that respect. However, that is far differnt than the usage of the word "conservative" as applied to the political spectrum now, at least in this country, Walter.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cyclops, can you read? After all, I said "perhaps even communist." I did not say that all of them were communist, I said they were extreme liberals or leftists. I do in fact think that so called "progressives" are generally more liberal than being just slightly liberal, so that is why I included the word, extreme.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Cyclops, can you read? After all, I said "perhaps even communist." I did not say that all of them were communist, I said they were extreme liberals or leftists. I do in fact think that so called "progressives" are generally more liberal than being just slightly liberal, so that is why I included the word, extreme.

So, the steps of Liberalism go straight from 'slightly' to 'extreme?'

I don't think Progressive means what you think it means.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

You may find left-Fascists as well as right-Fascists.

I would like to add another question to my previous response to this. I find this statement by you to be very fascinating. I would also like you to tell us if there are also left-Communists as well as right-Communists? After all, that would be just as logical, wouldn't it?

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

So, the steps of Liberalism go straight from 'slightly' to 'extreme?'

Are there only two shades of gray, cyclops? Use common sense, which would tell you that liberalism can be expressed in varying degrees from slightly to extreme, so that one could perhaps use the terms "moderately liberal," "very liberal," and so on. Similar qualifiers can also be applied to the term "conservative."

Quote:

I don't think Progressive means what you think it means.

Cycloptichorn

I would be interested to hear what you think it means, cyclops?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Thank you for the reply. I have yet to digest the web sites you were kind enough to provide.

JM

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@okie,

It seems to me that conservatives are closer to being fascist than progressives to communists.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

You will need to back that up with evidence, Advocate. I of course think just the opposite for many reasons. For example, if you look at Nazism as a form of fascism, the Nazis had a basic philosophy of "Common Good over individual Good," which is clearly leftist and anti-conservative or anti-individual freedom, liberty, and responsibility. Also, they were very anti-capitalist in some respects, as well as anti-"profiteering." They wanted to eliminate all income from anything other than what they considered to be work, and they also advocated the elimination of trusts, etc. Among their other policies were things like the State taking care of the children, education, health care, and old folks, etc., all more socialist and leftist, and anti free market.

We could also discuss Mussolini's brand of Fascism, which was referred to as the "Third Way," which was defined as injecting socialism into capitalism to form sort of a hybrid system, which clearly would not be leaning right.

1 Reply

@okie,

Regarding my questioning Walter and the responses he has been gracious enough to supply us with, something is becoming quite apparent which you also probably noticed. Our American idea of conservative political thought is, if not alien, certainly unfamiliar to those citizens of Europe like Walter. This is admittedly a generalization but given my (American) experience with European political thought this is where my thoughts are presently taking me. Perhaps you and I are forgetting that before WWI there was a powerful socialist element in European politics, for whatever reason. That would indicate that a socialist mindset has been given just about three full generations (30years) to reach maturity. This, of course, means that even if there was any historical evidence in Europe of the kind of government we Americans initially possessed, its institutional and societal existence would be long extinguished by now. But does Europe have any such history? I think not. Before Bismarck's socialism we find Monarchy and Nationalism but nothing even approaching American Republican style democracy.

The exception to this is Great Britain, well kind of. The U.K has never considered itself part of Europe and geographically they are correct but, more importantly, they have a point historically with the political innovation involving the Magna Carta. You will be happy to know that because of this document (and the U.K.'s subsequent history) the American founders considered themselves and their constitution conservative. They considered themselves loyal to the crown until, well you know. They reasoned they were merely preserving the historical government they felt they were heir to. When the King, or more accurately his legislature, decided the Americans were second class citizens a tea party ensued (sound familiar?). Your observation of 'conservative communist's might be a little different (well such communist are anyway). I suspect the main reason these communist pined for the old days was more self serving then principled observance of political thought.

Perhaps the best way to differentiate American conservatism from the world's others is that Socialist and Communist view that the resources for producing wealth are owned by the state. American conservatives believe that such resources are better owned and husbanded by individuals. This more than sets us up for further arguments, but time is short and we are supposed to get a 6 foot swell with offshore winds down here tomorrow and I must get some rest.

JM

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@JamesMorrison,

James, I thank you for offering some interesting and cogent points. I have always tried to make it clear that when I was talking about Hitler with folks like Walter or anyone else, that the judgement of him being left or right was in context with our current understanding of what defines left vs right here in the United States in recent times. Perhaps you are right to point out that European citizens like Walter just have a really hard time understanding or relating to what American Republican style conservative democracy is, because European politics have been so different for a long time.

One of the things I have tried to offer this forum is a common sense, cut to the chase, assessment of politics. I even suspected that using the name "okie" would bring out some derision from the intellectual and liberal crowd, and that prediction has been proven right. I think intelligentsia and the academic world kind of resents the idea that an old hick from Oklahoma would have anything intelligent to say, but as I have told many since I joined this board, I have known many old hicks, they could be called, that are infinitely smarter and wiser than most politicians. At least they can balance their checkbooks, and I do not think the practical lessons of wisdom are taught much better than what nature can teach you in the course of making an honest living off the land.

Your point about folks believing resources for producing wealth being owned by the State, I agree, and it is evident that is the pattern of thought by Democrats nowadays, as they consider the idea of allowing people not to pay as much of their earnings in taxes as the government giving them the money, when in actuality it was the people's money to start with, not the State's. The entire concept of how taxation works, who owns the money, and all of that, is completely turned around in their minds.

The fact that people that are wealthier or that produce more wealth are paying most of the taxes and funding most of the government, it seems not to impress them at all, and they are not the least bit grateful to those people. Instead of appreciating and thanking the people that pay for most of the government and provide most of the jobs, we are instead told to despise the rich and admire the non-achievers and those that either pay nothing into the system or are net takers from the government, as well as provide few to no jobs whatsoever.

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@mysteryman,

Somehow, MM thinks these words, written by himself a few days ago:

Quote:

So you are blaming the child for the sins of the father?
Did the woman you speak of love that child, did she feed that child, provide for that child, raise that child to be respectful, and was she a good parent?

Or, did she ignore, beat, starve, mistreat, and otherwise abuse that child both mentally and physically?
Judging by what you just wrote, if she raised that child right that makes her a better person then you are.
After all, you said...

Are these words, written by me and to which he responded with his typical pugnacious half-witted attitude that makes him so unwelcome here:

Quote:

Then, I think of teenaged girls from families of drug addicts, becoming pregnant and raising their babies in less than laudable family situations. I think of a young woman I once worked with who became pregnant by a man she hated but had the child. Why anyone with reason would raise the child of a man she hated is beyond me.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Why don't you try writing novels? You have a flair for fiction.

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The last ten pages or so of this thread should be sent to a practicing physician in okie's home range.

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@JamesMorrison,

JM, You are really confused; Walter's understanding of politics in Europe and the US is more realistic than most Americans understanding of politics on these two continents. Most often, it is Americans who fail to understand European politics, and are confused with their use of the words conservative, socialist, democrat, liberal, and republican. Most Americans fail to understand American politics; that's been proven by many on these boards. They have no understanding of socialism, capitalism, democrats, liberals, independents, or republicans, and even fail to understand US history.

The proof is all over on a2k.

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@cicerone imposter,

Your response to JM is magnificent and captures succinctly the crux of the matter.

You are forever a role model for me because of this post.

A few days ago, okie wanted me to tell Walter something because okie sees Walter's understanding as imperfect.

I would never speak to Walter as okie wanted me to. The idea is absurd and derives from okie's inflated idea of himself. It would take me a couple of years of reading to catch up with Walter. okie does not understand that, just as he does not understand that the writings of a scholar who is fluent in German on German history mean much more than the writings of a scholar who must read the same documents in translation.

When I read okie's address to me about Walter, the response I wanted to make to okie is that I would not disrespect Walter in that way. I did not make it because okie would not understand that I respect Walter or why.

These boards are indeed proof of how little the majority of AMericans know about politics but more than that they offer proof of the willful ignorance of Americans and the titanic egos that enforce such ignorance.

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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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