On Obama and McCain, Hagee and Farrakhan

On the plus side (considering Israel's survival), perhaps Hagee and his fans/followers can fill in the personnel gaps arising from the following. I'm betting they'll become the source of a recruiting boom of biblical proportions...

Quote:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/29206.html

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Does this mean that if a politician is anti-choice and a Catholic that they must withdraw membership in and distance themselves from the Catholic Church in order to be a candidate for president?

How about if they are against capital punishment and a member of the Catholic Church? Is that another reason for them not to be a presidential candidate if they don't denounce the church they attend?

If a candidate is a Mormon, must they denounce and reject any endorsements from members of the Catholic Church because they attend a church that has views that differ from the candidate's?

How about if the politician is an atheist? Must he or she denounce and reject any endorsements or association with people of faith in order to run for president?

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okie wrote:

What is all the obsession over here? [..] I am sure there are lots of people that endorse all the candidates that the candidates may not endorse in return. Here is the rub. What really matters is who the candidates endorse.

OK, Okie, so let's look at this case according to your standard:

Obama neither sought nor welcomed Farrakhan's support. When asked about Farrakhan's stated support for his candidacy, Obama explicitly denounced (and now in the Democratic debate also "rejected") Farrakhan's ideas.
McCain solicited Hagee's support and then held a joint appearance with the man to welcome his endorsement. When first confronted about it, he retorted: "all I can tell you is that I am very proud to have Pastor John Hagee's support."

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nimh wrote:

McCain solicited Hagee's support and then held a joint appearance with the man to welcome his endorsement. When first confronted about it, he retorted: "all I can tell you is that I am very proud to have Pastor John Hagee's support."

He "retorted"? Is that your word, nimh, or has the anti-McCain crowd unified in a lexicon it will use to paint McCain as a grumpy, old man?

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Quote:

The chamber where a body is placed when being cremated is also referred to as a retort.

I don't think even the most ardent anti-McCainites such as right wing-nuts consider McCain ready for cremation.

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nimh wrote:

okie wrote:
What is all the obsession over here? [..] I am sure there are lots of people that endorse all the candidates that the candidates may not endorse in return. Here is the rub. What really matters is who the candidates endorse.

OK, Okie, so let's look at this case according to your standard:

Obama neither sought nor welcomed Farrakhan's support. When asked about Farrakhan's stated support for his candidacy, Obama explicitly denounced (and now in the Democratic debate also "rejected") Farrakhan's ideas.

McCain solicited Hagee's support and then held a joint appearance with the man to welcome his endorsement. When first confronted about it, he retorted: "all I can tell you is that I am very proud to have Pastor John Hagee's support."

Good for Obama for denouncing Farrakhan. Is he also going to distance himself from his church, which has some strange racial agendas, and that also labeled Farrakhan as a man that epitomizes greatness?

I don't think it was wise for McCain to solicit Hagee's endorsement, but I don't think it equates to Obama and his pastor. Question, how hard did McCain solicit the endorsement, or did it land in his lap? I don't know that, but it would be interesting to know.

In general, I do agree with Butrflynet, in that we should be careful not to bring religion into politics as a litmus test for candidates, but if something is blatantly out of line, then it should be looked at. For example, I would not vote for anyone with extremist Muslim religious beliefs, or for anyone that may be too friendly to those beliefs. Based on that, I am curious to know more about Obama's religious beliefs. Just curious, thats all at this point.

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okie wrote:

I am curious to know more about Obama's religious beliefs.

Constitution of the United States

Article VI

All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Obama is a mainstream Christian. That is more than anyone needs to know about his religious beliefs.

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Roxxxanne wrote:

Obama is a mainstream Christian. That is more than anyone needs to know about his religious beliefs.

I think there is some question about that, in light of what his church and pastor have done and said.

It isn't about a religious test, it is about their politics, in case you haven't figured that out, Roxi.

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okie wrote:

Roxxxanne wrote:

Obama is a mainstream Christian. That is more than anyone needs to know about his religious beliefs.

I think there is some question about that, in light of what his church and pastor have done and said.

It isn't about a religious test, it is about their politics, in case you haven't figured that out, Roxi.

Who cares what his pastor says? That's not Obama, it's some other guy.

Jeez

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

Obama is a mainstream Christian. That is more than anyone needs to know about his religious beliefs.

I think there is some question about that, in light of what his church and pastor have done and said.

It isn't about a religious test, it is about their politics, in case you haven't figured that out, Roxi.

Who cares what his pastor says? That's not Obama, it's some other guy.

Jeez

Cycloptichorn

Is okie considering voting for Obama?

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

Obama is a mainstream Christian. That is more than anyone needs to know about his religious beliefs.

I think there is some question about that, in light of what his church and pastor have done and said.

It isn't about a religious test, it is about their politics, in case you haven't figured that out, Roxi.

Who cares what his pastor says? That's not Obama, it's some other guy.

Jeez

Cycloptichorn

Cyclops, you hypocrite. I bet you wouldn't say this if this was a Republican. In fact no bet, its a lock, and you know it.

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Ticomaya wrote:

He "retorted"? Is that your word, nimh

Yeah, I came up with it all by myself. Impressive, huh? Tomorrow I'm going to try to learn two big words.

(Seriously, what in heavens name is your issue here? Didnt McCains answer sound like a "retort"? And what is bad about a "retort" anyhow? I sure wish I had a good retort to this kind of nonsense.)

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nimh wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
He "retorted"? Is that your word, nimh

Yeah, I came up with it all by myself. Impressive, huh? Tomorrow I'm going to try to learn two big words.

Then you can have two milks at snack time.

Quote:

(Seriously, what in heavens name is your issue here? Didnt McCains answer sound like a "retort"? And what is bad about a "retort" anyhow? I sure wish I had a good retort to this kind of nonsense.)

Calm people respond ... cranky and angry people retort. It's a matter of use of terminology to paint the picture you want. Seriously, I'm applying the blatham school of thought to this matter.

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
okie wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

Obama is a mainstream Christian. That is more than anyone needs to know about his religious beliefs.

I think there is some question about that, in light of what his church and pastor have done and said.

It isn't about a religious test, it is about their politics, in case you haven't figured that out, Roxi.

Who cares what his pastor says? That's not Obama, it's some other guy.

Jeez

Cycloptichorn

Cyclops, you hypocrite. I bet you wouldn't say this if this was a Republican. In fact no bet, its a lock, and you know it.

You mean like that fact that John McCain can't remember if he is a Baptist or an Episcopalian and you are worried about Obama's religion?

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snood wrote:

So real life,
If it is right to ask of Obama that he "reject and denounce" Farrakhan, should McCain be expected to show the same committnment to avoiding association with bigots by "rejecting and denouncing" Hagee?

Please be brief and answer directly if you can.

I didn't say Obama should denounce Farrakhan. He already has. So far so good. I believe Obama when he says he neither wants nor needs Farrakhan's support.

I said Obama should leave the racist church (that he has been a member of for 20 years) that gave an award to Farrakhan and promotes a 'black value system' and the pastor of which (Obama's confessed 'mentor') said that 9-11 was a 'wake up call to white America'.

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This was predictable, and I warned my fellow Republicans. Not only do I have concerns for John because I think he appears to be a bit fatigued and aged these days, but even the campaign trail could be taking its toll on him. Even if the Alzheimers rumors are unfounded, which they probably and most assuredly are, the main goal to plant the seed of doubt in voters minds by his opponents will have been accomplished.

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snood wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
snood wrote:
So real life,
If it is right to ask of Obama that he "reject and denounce" Farrakhan, should McCain be expected to show the same committnment to avoiding association with bigots by "rejecting and denouncing" Hagee?

Please be brief and answer directly if you can.

In your estimation, snood ... is Hagee a racist? Is Farrakhan a racist?

Please be brief and answer directly if you can.

I think they are both bigots, form what I have heard of both. I think Farrakhan is a racist, but I don't have information about Hagee's views on other races.

What is your distinction between a 'bigot' and a 'racist'?

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real life wrote:

snood wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
snood wrote:
So real life,
If it is right to ask of Obama that he "reject and denounce" Farrakhan, should McCain be expected to show the same committnment to avoiding association with bigots by "rejecting and denouncing" Hagee?

Please be brief and answer directly if you can.

In your estimation, snood ... is Hagee a racist? Is Farrakhan a racist?

Please be brief and answer directly if you can.

I think they are both bigots, form what I have heard of both. I think Farrakhan is a racist, but I don't have information about Hagee's views on other races.

What is your distinction between a 'bigot' and a 'racist'?

bigot

a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

racist

one who believes that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

so, it seems to me that all racists are bigots but not all bigots are necessarily racists. that clear it up for ya bunkie?

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If Obama were to abandon his church, and muzzle his wife and start wearing a flag pin and sing Lee Greenwood's 'Proud to be an American" while eating apple pie and pledging allegiance, does anyone suppose these folks would not be back on this thread the next day with some other scandalous, subversive "fact" about him?

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good point

Cycloptichorn

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On Obama and McCain, Hagee and Farrakhan

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