The UN, US and Iraq IV

timberlandko wrote:

I read that when it was first put on line. Truly a horror story. I recall the case of Susan Smith ... the North Carolina mother who strapped her two young sons into their carseats, pushed her car into a lake, then feigned grief and disbelief at their putative disappearance, cynically begging for their safe return from every TV set in the nation. Another horrifying tale, without dispute, and sadly very true. Is either story indicative of its society in general, or are both tragic abberations, no more or less horrific for their atypicality?

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Full story

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Sounds like baby talk to me. Is this indicative of a great leader and statesman? I don't think so.

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So what's your point, Gel? That evidence of horrific, tragic, inhuman suffering and outrage can be found in contemporary Iraq? Apart from Antarctica, perhaps, I can't think of an inhabited part of the planet immune from such, war or no war,dictatorship or democracy. Or perhaps your point is you believe the Iraqis are too primitive a people for self determination. Anyone is entitled to an opinion, even a contrarian opinion. Neither "The War" nor the US created the society in which the outrages you cite occurred. Neither will lift that society above and beyond the capability to produce similar outrages. Like it or not, the Iraqi People have noticed they've been liberated, and like it or not, the preponderant local sentiment is not entirely negative toward the notion. Stability increases day by day, but no society is free of predators, bigots, and all other variety of thug. As stability improves in Iraq, the thugs will have considerably less latitude. They've already lost their government jobs and official approval ... now they're unemployed thugs, who are being rounded up, many being returned to the very prisons they left when Saddam flung open the doors. Iraq won't be a functioning democracy by next tueday. They are on their way, however, and likely will get there sooner than some folks on elsewhere on this planet might find convenient. And it now appears they will do it with US help and direction alone, as the UN prefers political games to effectively address pressing issues. Opposition to the US over the Iraq issue has set the stage for the demise of the UN ... UN failure to accept its responsibilities in the region assure the institution will not miss its exit cue. Is the EU next to be written out of the script?

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Gil,
Who is more barbaric, the anarchic scum who routinely abduct and rape, or those who insist it never hapened/choose to disregard it in favour of "happy news from Iraq"/use it as a hammer to trumpet the superiority of thier nation? Sad

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ya know, bob, concentrating on either ridiculous extreme is absurd. Iraq is not perfect. The US is not perfect. Iraq is arguably less imperfect than it was a short while ago. There may yet be hope for the US.

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My original point was directed to Sopia and that was ... how are you going to take a meaningful poll in an occupied country where the answers to said poll are a form of self preservation. For 30yrs prior to this occupation there were no questions .......... period.

Now, this person named Zoogby can extract a truthful answer, ie... one that is not designed for self preservation. Add in the fact that the average Iraqi will not have a clue as to say ... what is democracy.

That knife cuts both ways ... just as I would not have much faith in a poll that suggest all Iraqi's love the US, the same would go for one that indicates they hate us.
In other words polls suck.

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You left one out Bob ... the scum that scum scrapes off it's shoes is the scum that sends innocents off to thier death on the authority of a stolen election ... that is the ultimate scum..

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And besides, they're just Arabs, right? Who cares if the ignorant little towely heads kill and rape each other. It isn't like they're people! That sems to be the gist of the responses in Gel's piece.
Yes, Timber, things have to get better, because they surely can't get much worse! Shocked

As for the UN and its "responsibilities in the region," how do you expect the UN to be able to function without a minimum of security? Bushy-Poo II and his cronies told the UN to go f##k themselves, realized they couldn't handle the mess on their own then went back to the UN and instead of asking for help offered to let the UN "assume their responsibilities." What a load of parochialistic offal! Its the US that his proving to be the real obstruction ot progress in Iraq, not the UN.
Much noise has been made of providing training for an Iraqi police force, but when the new police are subject to the same curfews, checkpoints,and indiscrimanate killings by US forces that the average Iraqi person they are trying to protect, they are rendered useless. As with everything else in this conflict, "our" actions contradict our words. Instead of encouraging stability the US' actions make stability impossible.

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The UN rejection of US offers of security support pretty much leaves the US out of the loop as far as UN security goes. And the UN's decision to cut-and-run, whatever may or may not be the justifications for their withdrawl, pretty much leaves the UN out of the loop as far as Iraqi reconstruction and rehabillitation go. Avoiding an issue does nothing to resolve the issue. Both the US and the UN have had a role in the declining relevance of the UN ... neither shows much interest in resolving those issues. That may well turn out the greatest tragedy, loss, and general globalpolitik setback to come of this whole debacle. Its difficult to determine now which is the greater challenge; improving US sentiment toward the UN, or improving UN sentiment toward the US. Without progress in both, that situation can only continue to deteriorate.

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Gel,
My name is Sofia. Intentional misspellings of members' name is against TOS.

Iraqis indeed have long established, barbaric practices. It would be wonderful if these could dissipate overnight. It seems it will take time. Once the Council has arrived at their laws, and have an army in place to enforce them--life will begin to improve in Iraq.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Iraq will emerge from the Stone Age.

Your point about some Iraqis being afraid to answer truthfully appears to argue my point. They are not afraid of the Americans views on their answers, but of their fellow Iraqis, still loyal to Saddam.

Hobitbob--

Quote:

Much noise has been made of providing training for an Iraqi police force, but when the new police are subject to the same curfews, checkpoints,and indiscrimanate killings by US forces that the average Iraqi person they are trying to protect, they are rendered useless. As with everything else in this conflict, "our" actions contradict our words. Instead of encouraging stability the US' actions make stability impossible

.
When the Iraqi forces are properly trained, they will be freed to act in that capacity. Letting them loose with guns, not completely trained, would result in more mistakened killings, and a loss of confidence by Iraqis for their police ... A thing done correctly takes time.

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Sophia wrote:

A thing done correctly takes time.

Quite. I can't but wonder at the folks siezed of the notion that while 12 years wasn't long enough, several months are far too long. Something certainly seems absurd.

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Sofia wrote:

Rome wasn't built in a day. Iraq will emerge from the Stone Age.

And who put them there?

Sofia wrote:

Iraqis indeed have long established, barbaric practices. It would be wonderful if these could dissipate overnight.

As do the dwellers of every nation and civilization. Please tell me you are not falling onto the trap of "those people-ism." You and I are not better or worse than any other people.

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timberlandko wrote:

Sophia wrote:
A thing done correctly takes time.

Quite. I can't but wonder at the folks siezed of the notion that while 12 years wasn't long enough, several months are far too long. Something certainly seems absurd.

Perhaps because many of us feel ashamed that our nation is responsible for the mess in Iraq.

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hobitbob wrote:

Gil,
Who is more barbaric, the anarchic scum who routinely abduct and rape, or those who insist it never hapened/choose to disregard it in favour of "happy news from Iraq"/use it as a hammer to trumpet the superiority of thier nation?

Where did someone say it doesn't happen, and how can the culture that demands murder of raped women be laid at the feet of Americans?

This, and the brainwashing of children, the institutional teaching that Saddam is god--called education--are Stone Age principles that I would think every thinking person would be glad to see swept into history.

I perceive you as an intelligent person, Hobit. Don't you want these people to stop the murderous cleansing of their raped daughters, and open their minds to education?

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Sofia, rest assured the mispelling of your name was unintentional.
Barbaric ... from who's point of view.
What you call 'barbaric is in actuality a code of honor these people live and die by. If you want to address barbarism address, 10,000 Iraqi men women and children massacred by fire fallling from the sky.
Why? They lived in the wrong place. A crime of geography.

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bob, many of us feel our nation, alone or not, is responsible for finally doing something to lift Iraq its been in for generations. Those of us with that viewpoint are unashamed of it, even while we acknowledge and accept our efforts in the matter are as succeptable to the failings of humankind as are all efforts of humankind. Some of us really think we're trying to make an intolerable situation more tolerable, many of us see progress in that effort, humanly flawed though it may be.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Sofia, rest assured the mispelling of your name was unintentional.
Barbaric ... from who's point of view.
What you call 'barbaric is in actuality a code of honor these people live and die by. If you want to address barbarism address, 10,000 Iraqi men women and children massacred by fire fallling from the sky.
Why? They lived in the wrong place. A crime of geography.

Beating and murdering a girl or woman because she has been raped is barbaric from my point of view. Is it OK by you?

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One entry found for barbarian.
Main Entry: bar·bar·i·an
Pronunciation: bär-'ber-E-&n, -'bar-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin barbarus
Date: 14th century
1 : of or relating to a land, culture, or people alien and usually believed to be inferior to another land, culture, or people
2 : lacking refinement, learning, or artistic or literary culture
- barbarian noun
- bar·bar·i·an·ism /-E-&-"ni-z&m/ noun

You tell me.

You assume joy on the part of the person adminstering the beating.
Can you tell me the rate of unwed mothers in Iraq?

My father was abusive and I mean two by four abusive ... broken bone abusive ...and while I do not forgive or otherwise condone abusing a child .... he was raised that way, as was his father .... I can understand.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

If you want to address barbarism address, 10,000 Iraqi men women and children massacred by fire fallling from the sky.
Why? They lived in the wrong place. A crime of geography.

IraqBodycount tallies "All reported civilian deaths" in Iraq since the onset of the war at somewhere between 7K to 9K or so, by their latest update. While certainly some Iraqi civilian deaths were due to "fire from the sky", others indisputably have been due to other causes, not excluding sectarian iternecine violence and simple criminality, to say nothing of more mudane, wholly unrelated-to-war causalities. Hyperbole and hysteria, sentiment and prejudice, opinion and polemic, do not constitute evidentiary argument, no matter how comforting and self-reinforcing they may be.

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The UN, US and Iraq IV

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