Very interesting re the Kay Report, what British conservatives say about that and the role of their government:
Quote:Fresh blow to Blair's credibility
Tony Blair's credibility has suffered another damaging blow after the specialist team he sent to Iraq failed to find any weapons of mass destruction.
The reported conclusions of the 1,400 strong team of scientific, military and intelligence experts adds further weight to the long-standing Conservative demand for a full independent judicial inquiry into the way the Prime Minister committed Britain to war in the Middle East.
The findings of the Iraq Survey Group, that not even minute amounts of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons material have been discovered since Saddam Hussein was toppled from power, were leaked by a source in the Bush administration.
Commenting, Shadow Foreign Secretary Michael Ancram declared: "If this report is accurate, this is another damaging blow to the Prime Minister's credibility. He has repeatedly used the Iraq Survey Group to stonewall criticism on weapons of mass destruction. For months Tony Blair has been assuring the House of Commons and the public that the Iraq Survey Group would find WMD. This report, if confirmed, would be yet another example of why nobody believes a word the Prime Minister says anymore."
Mr Ancram told conservatives.com: "It further underlines the need for an independent judicial inquiry, which we have been demanding for the last four months, to investigate the way this Government handled the build up to the war and its aftermath."
25/09/2003
source :
conservatives.com
The female Iraqi Council member, who was gunned down five or so days ago, died today.
Disgusted. There are two women left on the Council.
She was brilliant and brave.
Dammit.
Well, I don't know her, so I can't judge how brilliant and brave Aquila al-Hashimi has been.
However, accorsing to the media, Al-Hashimi's prior involvement with the Baath Party has been controversial. Some Iraqis criticized her affiliation with the party, which included work for Tariq Aziz when he was deputy prime minister, but U.S. officials said she was never a senior party member.
Other Iraqis have speculated that her decision to work with the U.S. occupation authority made her a particular target of loyalists of former President Saddam Hussein.
Nevertheless, another most deplorable and needless death in this war.
Timber gives his reasons why the invasion of Iraq was necessary and nimh says that his world "has become significantly more dangerous"
Mr. Nimh's perceptions may well be correct, for him, that is.
The most recent Gallup Poll taken in BAGHDAD comes up with this finding( BAGHDAD is capitalized since it is in the most dangerous section of the country where the most killings and sabotage is taking place)
QUOTE:
"Most residents of BAGHDAD say that ousting Saddam Hussein was worth the hardships they've endured since then..."
"Two-thirds, 67 percent say they think Iraq will be in better condition five years from now than it was before the US led invasion. Only 8 percent say they think it will be better off."
And this a poll in what is clearly the most dangerous section of the country. Not a poll from the northern Kurdish section which has been very peaceful--not a poll from Basra in the South but a poll from BAGHDAD.
One thing for sure- Sofia- the Batth thugs are not "feminists". Why hasn't Gloria Steinem weighed in on this. I would have expected a full-bore denunciation of the people( Baathists) who refuse to allow women to take their rightful place among the governors of Iraq.
I hope this isn't one of the things that Mr. Nimh is "worried" about.
Steve said, a few pages back:
Quote:So we get back to my original point. The war was illegal. But I was prepared to accept that. But it has not been a success either, and that I'm not prepared to overlook.
This statement does not follow on some things you have said in the past. Are you now willing to put illegal (and immoral) behind you and come down on the side of pragmatism? Or did you mean that we can do nothing about the illegal and immoral pre-emptive war that has now taken place, so we should direct our interest and focus to the well-being of the Iraqis and their country under our occupation?
(Psst....what does your avatar mean? It looks startlingly like an IUD.
)
Steve is basically correct in his exposition about Machiavelli. Gelisgesti shows he? she? knows NOTHING about political science.
Max Weber, German Sociologist and Political Economist, a leader in these fields, who influenced thousands of scholars after him, talked about
a morality, misunderstood as cynicism, which was expounded by Machiavelli, which Weber referred to as an "ethic of ultimate ends". Weber tells us that, in the Machiavellian mode, the ethics of personal responsibility implies a willingness to compromise, to dirty one's hands. to make package deals, to forgo the prdeful satisfaction that comes from self-conscious purity and devotion to principle. It requires a sens of reality, of proportion, rather than self- righteousness or academic smarts.
Source for above- Max Weber-
"Politics as a vocation" in "From Max Weber:essays in SociologyPP> 115-128.
More the above quoted Gallup poll:
-- Nearly half (47%) thinks the country as a whole is currently worse off than it was before the invasion - only a third (33%) thinks it is already in better shape,
-- Most (61%) take a favorable view of the new Iraqi Governing Council, but see its policies and decisions "still mostly determined by the coalition's own authorities" (75%),
I am very much afraid that one cannot pose Pragmatrism as the equivalent of illegality and immorality. Indeed, pragmatism may be legal and moral.
The "illegality and/or immorality" of the war must be proven. It is not, although, Kara may think so, self-evident.
As for pragmatism, that Gallup Poll taken in Iraq shows that the Iraqis, IN BAGHDAD NO LESS, think the liberation of Iraq was a good thing.
But mR. Hinteler: You left out an important - a very imporant point. The poll was taken in Baghdad. Not in the Northern Kurdish area...not in Basra...in Baghdad.
It is as if one were to take a poll about safety in the streets in the Slums of DC or Watts in LA or Englewood in Chicago or the Ghetto in Detroit.
Those are dangerous areas. So is Bagdad. The presence of so much optimism in Baghdad is revealing.
Gallup has promised to keep polling. I will watch for the polls
We shall see, Mr. Hinteler. We shall see.
Weber, unlike Machiavelli, is much more idealistic, e.g. in that he suggests how government and the ruler should be, rather than how they really are.
Weber approaches politics more humanely and democratically than Macchiavelli, by emphasizing democratic tenets, such as parties and parliament.
Maybe, Italgo, reading Weber in his own language has some advantages. :wink:
Italgato wrote:But mR. Hinteler: You left out an important - a very imporant point. The poll was taken in Baghdad. Not in the Northern Kurdish area...not in Basra...in Baghdad.
Well, you said so already. I just wanted to add what you forgot to post.
Mr. Hinteler-You are correct. I will never forget the story of the writer who went to Germany- One Philip Jackson, the author of "The Lost Weekend" to visit his literary hero- Thomas Mann( also one of my favorities- albeit in English).
When waiting for Herr Mann, Mr. Jackson conversed with Mann's wife. She wanted to know if he had read most of Mann's work. He said yes.
She asked when he had learned to read German.
Jackson replied that he had not learned German and that he had read Mann's books in translation.
Mrs. Mann then replied--I'm am very sorry but I must tell you that you did not really read my husband's works.
Nevertheless, Mr. Hinteler, there are good translations around.
I do not think that the translator of Weber's "Politics as a Vocation" is that far off.
I must remind you, Mr. Hinteler, that in the sections of Politics as A Vocation, Weber was commenting on MACHIAVELLI, not on Weber.
Look it up!!!!
Mr. Hinteler must realize that time is valuable and not all of a news can be given. But, since you insist, here is the rest of it.
quote
"Six in ten had a favorable view of the new Iraq Governing Council, but most see its priorities as set by coalition authorities. Half said the coalition authorities are doing a better job now than two months ago, while 14 percent said they were doing a worse job.
The survey also said that 62 Percent think ousting Saddam was worht the hardships they have endured since the invasion.
Did I leave anything out, Mr. Hinteler?
I think that was a rather optomistic Survey by Gallup coming from the heart of the most dangerous 50 mile strip in Iraq( Iraq is as large as California).
I will report on other surveys that Gallup may make OUTSIDE of the fifty mile trouble strip, Mr. Hinteler.
But, I must give you some credit, Mr. Hinteler. You pointed out an important point. ( Re: Max Weber)
It is very difficult to understand Nuances.
You point is really well taken. A person who does not learn a language in the schools of a country, and does not speak daily with citizens of that country, must, of necessity, be disadvantaged in fully understanding the nuances.
Thank you for pointing that out, Mr. Hinteler.
Well, when you think so much of that lecture, may I give another quotation from that:
Quote:In the United States, amateur administration through booty politicians in accordance with the outcome of presidential elections resulted in the exchange of hundreds of thousands of officials, even down to the mail carrier. The administration knew nothing of the professional civil servant-for-life, but this amateur administration has long since been punctured by the Civil Service Reform. Purely technical, irrefrageable needs of the administration have determined this development.
source: Max Weber, 'Politik als Beruf' (Politics as a Vocation),
a speech at Munich University, 1918, published in 1919 by Duncker & Humblodt, Munich.
Walter said--
Please, stop the references to Clinton!! We are trying to get past all that!!
Actually, Sofia, you know it much better than I do: at the time, Weber spoke those words, it was Wilson.
You see, Mr. Hinteler-You prove my point. As a non-native you do not understand US nuances.
Please be informed that Woodrow Wilson was one of the "patron saints" of the Democrat Party.
I am amazed that you don't know that!
Nuances????
