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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 11:58 am
The agreement was not just to not have WMDs.

But the US did it's part in the breakdown of the agreements by inserting US intel agents into the inspections and using data garnered from the inspections to attack Iraqi positions.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:00 pm
Yeah, where's the cake? Can't eat something that doesn't exist.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:02 pm
I just came up with a great marketing idea that I know will sell. I'm going to sell invisible cake. There's enough people out there willing to buy.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:06 pm
I like your idea of sending our Constitution to Iraq since we don't use it much anymore.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:07 pm
Brand X wrote:
Howard wades in after Chirac and Annan savage Bush over invasion


Slug fest! Laughing

Seriously tho, it doesnt look like this session of the General Assembly will go down in history as the one that reconciled the world's main powers.

Bush came to the UN to ask other countries' support, but doomed his own request by taking a conspicuously uncomprimising stand on every contentious topic at hand.

Chirac c.s., on the other hand may have surprised the US government by still not simply giving in to American power and the faits accomplis it has wrought with its use of it.

The deadlock continues.

Kofi Annan did open some doors by at least sketching a long-term vision in which both sides' arguments resounded. But it was outshadowed by his part in the apparent resolve of the world community to make the US clear that this, the way it had gone about things the past year, would simply not do.

(That would be my editorial ;-))
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:09 pm
Sophy wrote "You have two factors: arms and the gov. Take either out of the picture, and you have disarmed. We took the gov out."

Are you sitting down Sofia? Good, then I will say I agree with you! [I didn't want you to faint]

You are right. Weapons on their own, unless they accidentally explode, never hurt anyone. It needs someone to pull the trigger. The threat comes from a combination of the weapon's power AND the intent to use it.

But the fact is that's not how the war was sold to us. Tony Blair said that if Saddam himself disarmed that would be sufficient to avoid disarmament by force. He could keep his conventional forces. And his palaces, and his Ba'ath party and by implication he could keep up the repression of his people. I don't think that was ever the main thrust of the American case. In a way Bush was more honest about the necessity of regime change. But here all the argument rested on WMD. Saddam could either disarm voluntarily, or we would help to disarm him by force.

WMD were crucial. They were the only reason we went to war. It was because of WMD that the Attorney General made the unprecedented ruling that a pre-emptive strike was legal.

And all the time well all knew it was only an excuse. A legal fig leaf to save blushes. Now if Tony had been more honest and set out the real and urgent needs to invade Iraq, I might have gone along with it. But he didn't, he stuck like an old record in the groove on WMD. Why? because he had to. The real reasons we went into Iraq could never be supported by international law. And staying the right side of the law was what Blair as Prime Minister, and a lawyer himself knew all about.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:22 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
You are right. Weapons on their own, unless they accidentally explode, never hurt anyone. It needs someone to pull the trigger. The threat comes from a combination of the weapon's power AND the intent to use it.


And there's the rub. Blair sold the war on the argument that they still had the weapons, period. Bush empathically added the argument that there was a real danger of intent, too - that Iraq would attack - or help terrorists attack - neighbours or the US itself in a 9/11 manner.

Now the US and UK forces are having a near-impossible time proving that Saddam's Iraq still had the weapons, period. Let alone argument no. 2 - that it had the intent to use them.

The intent argument was crucial in the final stages of UN-US negotiations. A coalition of Security Council member states suggested a compromise that would involve a delay of intervention. The US rejected all such delays with an impassioned reference to the imminent danger to the US of more "9/11"s and the need to act decisively to "save America from another such day of horror".

Today or yesterday in the British newspapers: news from the Hutton inquiry that Blair's cabinet did intervene to scrap certain phrases from the intelligence reports that were to be used to persuade the country's MPs. What was the matter? The intelligence agencies had written that not only did Iraq have WMD, it would be ready / likely to use them if there was a threat of attack.

The Blair cabinet acted to scrap that last bit, so that the report would simply read that Iraq would be ready / likely to use them - period.

They concocted their case. Even their own intelligence agencies told them there was no danger of Iraq striking first with its supposed WMD - which kinda makes the argument for the need of pre-emptive action crash apart - and they chose not just to neglect it, but to hide it.

Lies, lies, lies.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:25 pm
nimh highlights a crucial part.

The UN was, IMO, willing to go to war in Iraq. But not on our arbitrary terms.

I have said before that if the timetable for war did not take priority over the successful campaign to go to war, Bush would have had a UN sanctioned war.

The UN was simply not buying the information that the US was putting forward and thus far they have been vindicated. The threat was clearly hyped.

We made it clear from the beginning that we wanted regime change. That was not in any UN resolution. Iraq had an obligation to uphold but we were disinterested in enforcing it, we simply wanted regime change.

There is no UN resolution sanctioning regime change at the arbitrary whim of the US.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:31 pm
Brand X wrote:
Sofia wrote:
Shroeder just finished glorifying Bush. They met in the WH, Shroeder gave a glowing "Thank you" to Bush for his progress in Iraq, and Bush said the problems between Germany and the US are over.

Guess he's in line with the Resolution....


Now Chirac is isolated, probably the plan.

Quote:
During a 15-minute speech to the U.N. on Wednesday afternoon, however, Schröder avoided mention of the differences simply urging the U.N. role "to be strengthened" in Iraq.

"Only the United Nations can guarantee the legitimacy necessary to enable the Iraqi people to rapidly rebuild their country under an independent, representative government," he said.

Though Schröder didn't refer to the resolution directly in his speech, he mentioned that his country's "common position with France ... should be respected."
from DW-world: After Meeting with Bush, Schröder Urges "Strengthened" U.N. Role in Iraq
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:31 pm
nimh wrote:
[The Blair cabinet acted to scrap that last bit, so that the report would simply read that Iraq would be ready / likely to use them - period.


Here's a link to that story: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=446425. It's in The Times as well ("17 deleted words turned Saddam into aggressor").

Quote:
John Scarlett, chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, admitted yesterday that he had made the crucial change on the "prompting" of Jonathan Powell, the Prime Minister's most senior aide.

[..] Mr Scarlett said he removed the passage after an e-mail from Mr Powell had called it as "a problem" that could be seized on by anti-war critics.

Mr Powell's message, which was sent after the deadline for final comments from intelligence chiefs on the dossier, objected to the claim that the Iraqi dictator would use his weapons only if invaded.

"I think the statement on pg 19 that 'Saddam is prepared to use chemical and biological weapons if he believes his regime is under threat' is a bit of a problem," the e-mail read.

It pointed out that the claim would, in effect, back up an article by Donald Macintyre, The Independent's chief political commentator, that Saddam was "bad", but not "mad" enough to launch a WMD strike against the West. The e-mail went on: "It backs up the Don McIntyre [sic] argument that there is no CBW [chemical and biological weapons] threat and we will only create one if we attack him. I think you should redraft the para."
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:32 pm
I am sorry but I just don't get it. It took Saddam thirty years to come up with the less than venerable 'scud' missile .... it took the US of A to supply him with the nasty 'gas' of mass destruction ... he gave half his air force to his arch enemy Iran and buried the other half in the dessert. One of his more brilliant acomplishments was to develop the 'winnibago' of all mobile bacteria labs .... cleverly disquised as a tractor trailer rig ....
Let's face it , a guy that damned stupid would have spilled a beaker or pushed the wrong button at the ol scud plant a long long time ago. He was the original Homer Simpson of the terrorist guild.

How is it this man considered a World threat while North Korea is just a kooky place not to be taken seriously?
I just don't get it................
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:33 pm
Bush is now asking for regime change in Israel - only on the Palestinian side.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:47 pm
So why did the US/UK really go to war if we can see WMD as the sham that it was? There are a number of pertinent, even pressing, reasons. Millions of words have been used in speculation (on this thread alone!), and so its time for a summary...but not here, next post maybe.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 12:56 pm
War rationale--
Stablization of the ME, because of exponentional terrorism.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 01:00 pm
War rationale:

New foothold in ME.
Attempt to democratize a rare secular Arab nation.
Spur the economy.
Inbtroduce a new world order (in which Amarica is unabashedly militaristic).
Undo the 'damage' the hippies did to the nation in Vietnam.

I could go on forever, some I agree with and others I don;t. I think that ultimatelt the motivation was that the administration would like to change the status quo and make Amarican use of military power more common. I believe they see it as untapped potential.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 01:01 pm
as Bush mentioned yesterday at the UN, terrorism has not ceased nor stabilized.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 01:04 pm
Summary:

100+ reasons why the US/UK really wanted to take control of Iraq.

1. To secure the control and supply of hydrocarbon energy resources from the region.

2. To prevent Iraq threatening the control and supply of hydrocarbon energy resources from the region.

3-100. See 1 and 2 above.


101 to whenever you want to stop. A whole load of other **** including protecting Israel, bringing democracy to Iraq, getting rid of a nasty regime etc etc. yawn yawn yeah yeah blah blah
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 01:27 pm
PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...PNAC... PNAC...


I think that is a hundred
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 01:42 pm
98, but near enough
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2003 01:53 pm
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