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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 11:01 am
Timber:
Yes, Yes, yes, and yes. Where are the Civil affairs battalions? You know, the ones who are trainied to get things going again? They all belong to the Guard,and NONE of them have been activated!
B: Why are ther companies of combat arms soldiers STILL in the streets, and not MP's?
Oh, nevermind.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 11:39 am
Gunsmoke and Mirrors
September 14, 2003
By MAUREEN DOWD

WASHINGTON

This is how bad things are for George W. Bush: He's back in
a dead heat with Al Gore.

(And this is how bad things are for Al Gore: He's back in a
dead heat with George W. Bush.)

One terrorist attack, two wars, three tax cuts, four months
of guerrilla mayhem in Iraq, five silly colors on a terror
alert chart, nine nattering Democratic candidates, 10 Iraqi
cops killed by Americans, $87 billion in Pentagon
illusions, a gazillion boastful Osama tapes, zero Saddam
and zilch W.M.D. have left America split evenly between the
president and former vice president.

"More than two and a half years after the 2000 election and
we are back where we started," marveled John Zogby, who
conducted the poll.

It's plus ça change all over again. We are learning once
more, as we did on 9/11, that all the fantastic technology
in the world will not save us. The undigitalized human will
is able to frustrate our most elaborate schemes and lofty
policies.

What unleashed Shock and Awe and the most extravagant
display of American military prowess ever was a bunch of
theologically deranged Arabs with box cutters.

The Bush administration thought it could use scientific
superiority to impose its will on alien tribal cultures.
But we're spending hundreds of billions subduing two
backward countries without subduing them.

After the president celebrated victory in our high-tech war
in Iraq, our enemies came back to rattle us with a
diabolically ingenious low-tech war, a homemade bomb in a
truck obliterating the U.N. offices, and improvised
explosive devices hidden in soda cans, plastic bags and
dead animals blowing up our soldiers. Afghanistan has
mirror chaos, with reconstruction sabotaged by Taliban
assaults on American forces, the Afghan police and aid
workers.

The Pentagon blithely says that we have 56,000 Iraqi police
and security officers and that we will soon have more. But
it may be hard to keep and recruit Iraqi cops; the job pays
O.K. but it might end very suddenly, given the rate at
which Americans and guerrillas are mowing them down.

"This shows the Americans are completely out of control,"
First Lt. Mazen Hamid, an Iraqi policeman, said Friday
after angry demonstrators gathered in Falluja to demand the
victims' bodies.

Secretary Pangloss at Defense and Wolfie the Naif are
terminally enchanted by their own descriptions of the
world. They know how to use their minds, but it's not clear
they know how to use their eyes.

"They are like people in Plato's cave," observed one
military analyst. "They've been staring at the shadows on
the wall for so long, they think they're forms."

Our high-tech impotence is making our low-tech colony
sullen.

"It's 125 degrees there and they have no electricity and no
water and it doesn't make for a very happy population,"
said Senator John McCain, who recently toured Iraq. "We're
in a race to provide the services and security for people
so the Iraqis will support us rather than turn against us.
It's up for grabs."

Senator McCain says that "the bad guys" are reminding
Iraqis that America "propped up Saddam Hussein in the 80's,
sided with Iraq in the Iraq-Iran war, told the people in
Basra in '91 we'd help them get rid of Saddam and didn't,
and put economic sanctions on them in the 90's."

He says we have to woo them, even though we are pouring $87
billion - double the amount designated for homeland
security - into the Iraqi infrastructure when our own
electrical grid, and port and airport security, need
upgrading.

"If anyone thinks the French and Germans are going to help
us readily and rapidly," he says, "they're smoking
something very strong."

Mocking all our high-priced, know-nothing intelligence,
Osama is back in the studio making his rock videos.

The cadaverous caveman has gone more primitive to avoid
electronic detection, operating via notes passed by
couriers.

We haven't forgotten all Mr. Bush's bullhorn, dead-or-alive
pledges.

But he's like a kid singing with fingers in his ears,
avoiding mentioning Saddam or bin Laden, or pressing the
Pakistanis who must be protecting Osama up in no man's land
and letting the Taliban reconstitute (even though we bribed
Pakistan with a billion in aid). He doesn't dwell on
nailing Saddam either.

His gunsmoke has gone up in smoke.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/14/opinion/14DOWD.html?ex=1064539939&ei=1&en=d609301ecb6a9d7d
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 12:04 pm
Was it intentional or unintentional 'friendly' fire?
There is a difference .... or is there ..............


US TROOPS KILL IRAQI POLICE WHO SAID "DON'T SHOOT"
13 September 2003.

Telegraph, "US troops kill eight Iraqi policemen by mistake", 12 September 2003.
[ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;?xml=/news/2003/09/13/wirq13.xml ]
American troops opened fire on a convoy of Iraqi policemen yesterday, killing at least eight in a devastating setback to the army's efforts to improve relations in the country's most hostile region.
A hospital was pounded by heavy machine guns and large calibre weapons during the incident, outside Falluja, in the "Sunni Triangle" where many remain loyal to Saddam Hussein and fiercely opposed to the American presence.
The episode ranks as the worst case of "friendly fire" since the war and will deepen anger and resentment in the town, where 15 Iraqis were killed when US soldiers opened fire during a demonstration days after the end of the conflict.

The Telegraph, "US troops ignored pleas as they cut down Iraqi police", 13 September 2003.
[ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/13/wirq113.xml ]

Anguished pleas failed to prevent American troops firing for more than an hour on a convoy of Iraqi police yesterday, according to survivors of the worst "friendly fire" incident since the end of the war.
The incident in Falluja, in the notorious "Sunni triangle" ... began when police noticed a white BMW car, believed to belong to robbers who prey on traffic on the nearby highway, parked in the centre of town.
According to one policeman present, Nezar Rabiyeh, 23, they gave chase in five pick-ups painted in blue and white police livery. Other reports say there were only three vehicles, including one carrying a mounted machine gun.
The robbers, pursued by the police, ran into American soldiers, who opened fire. "They could see our cars were police cars," said Mr Rabiyeh. "We shouted 'Police! Police!' but it didn't make any difference."
...
Apart from the bloodshed, the incident is a serious blow to an American campaign to get on reasonable terms with local people.
The initiative was already under strain from another case of mistaken identity two days ago when soldiers caught in a roadside bombing shot at Iraqi policemen, killing one, south of the town.
Unlike at other police stations in Iraq, there is no American military police presence in Falluja to liaise between Iraqi and US security forces in the area - a circumstance which might have prevented yesterday's tragedy.
Local police said yesterday they resisted American attempts to persuade them to work together. "The Americans want the Iraqi police to co-operate with them, but our job is only to protect our town," said one officer.
"They want us to go out and chase the mujahideen, but we refuse. We know that if we go with them we will be hurt." The episode comes at a time when the coalition has been emphasising the value of Iraqi police co-operation in its efforts to improve security.
...


http://theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=334
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 12:08 pm
"Unfortunately, combat troops, unlike cops, do not have the luxury of asking questions before shooting. "

As I said several pages back typical American "shoot first think later".

I have respect for what you post Timber but you can't put it all down to the "fog of war".

The war finished some months ago remember? Didn't Bush make a victory passenger landing on a carrier?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 12:13 pm
Timber -- With respect (but very little by now!) to your post, above, WHOSE FAULT IS IT THAT THEY ARE NOT PREPARED!

And most of all, of course Iraq needs its "indigenous civil law enforcement cadre" -- so for god's sake, why are we killing them?

C'mon. Really.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 12:15 pm
I hope all future presidents study this administration very carefully before they commit our country to another war.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 12:27 pm
BTW the post I made above has a url containig agood deal of info regarding simular incidents.



http://theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=334

http://www.theinsider.org/
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 12:35 pm
Gels, Thanks for sharing that link on the US/UK War Crimes in Iraq. The sad aspect of all this is that not many in our country will care. That a war crimes tribunal will charge General Franks is encouraging. Maybe it will ultimately charge GWBush and his gangsters of the same crimes.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 01:49 pm
Ci -- This is as good a place as any to let you know that, though we don't always agree (just mostly), you have about the most visible moral "core" or "spine" of anyone who writes in these pages. You're not alone, but you sure stand out!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 02:48 pm
Tartar, It's just that I see everybody having equal value; and all should be treated with respect and dignity. I just calls em the way I sees em.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 05:09 pm
Well, you've got good instincts, CI, as well then.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 05:59 pm
Sofia wrote:
I think it is bad form to lift someone's post from another thread, and use it in this manner.


Oh, come on, sweetie, I just thought I'd respond in the proper place, rather than continue a 50-post digression in the "Democratic Contenders" thread.

Don't be all that-way... Surprised
0 Replies
 
Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 08:22 pm
I am afraid that I do not understand the logic displayed by Mr. Walter Hinteler in his last post. Mr. Hinteler says that the only spent ammunition was from American weapons.

If that is so, and there is no assurance that is true, is it supposed to prove that no one fired on American soldiers?

I really don't know what Mr. Walter Hinteler is talking about.

Perhaps he can be more direct and to the point.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 08:39 pm
Considering the "incidents" that have occured at checkpoints in Iraq, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to picture several trucks zooming past at high speed providing enough provocation for nevous soldiers to open fire.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 08:59 pm
Itialasks:
I really don't know what Mr. Walter Hinteler is talking about.

Use that massive brain......the Iraqis had no money for bullete after they bought the guns .
What I would like to know is the fate of the beemer they were chasing ...... methinks the whole story has yet to be told.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 09:25 pm
From today's Washington Post:Barber Article
Quote:
Our War's Mistaken Premise

By Benjamin R. Barber
Sunday, September 14, 2003; Page B07

The president is changing tactics. Forget weapons of mass destruction, the war in Iraq is about terrorism; time to go back to the United Nations to get some help with the military occupation and with paying the $87 billion reckoning for staying in Afghanistan and Iraq that is now being acknowledged. But he has reaffirmed his strategic vision: It is America's strategy of preventive war against rogue states, the very concept that has been the source of America's inability so far to defeat terrorism or establish anything resembling democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq.


That is the powerful lesson that can be drawn from the carnage at U.N. headquarters in Baghdad, from the emerging insurrectionary alliance between Baathists and radical Muslim groups, the reemergence of the Taliban and its politics of assassination in Afghanistan, and the renewed rise of sectarian militia forces in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

To fully understand America's failure, we have to back up to 9/11. Preventive war, the novel national-security doctrine announced after 9/11, exempted the United States from the obligation to justify war on grounds of self-defense or imminent threat. It promulgated a new right "to act against emerging threats before they are fully formed," to "act preemptively" against states that harbor or support terrorism. It is this strategic doctrine, and not tactics or policies on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, that is now failing so catastrophically.

The war on terrorism remains the Bush administration's ultimate rationale. The administration continues to insist that "in Iraq, we took another essential step in the war on terror" (Vice President Cheney), that "military and rehabilitation efforts now under way in Iraq are an essential part of the war on terror" (Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz), that Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a "terror regime" and that the ongoing war there today must be understood as part of the war on terror (President Bush).

Yet terrorism is flourishing -- not just in Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Kenya and Indonesia but in Afghanistan, where the Taliban were supposedly defeated, and in Iraq, where, prior to the war, there was no sponsored international terrorism at all.

The harrowing truth is that preventive attacks on "rogue states" and "those who sponsor or harbor terrorism" fail because they are premised on a fatal misunderstanding of what terrorism is and how it operates. In operational terms, terrorists are not cancers on the body of a weakened nation-state that die when the state dies. Rather, they are migrating parasites that temporarily occupy hosts (rogue states, weak governments, even transparent democracies). When a given host is destroyed or rendered immune to such parasites, they opportunistically move on to another host -- ever ready to reoccupy the earlier host if it is revived as a "friendly" regime. With their Taliban host eliminated, al Qaeda cadres moved on -- to the Afghan hinterland, to Pakistan, to Morocco, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, the Philippines, maybe back to Hamburg and to those places identified early on as harboring the terrorists of 9/11, Florida and New Jersey, and now back to Baghdad and Kabul.

Terrorists are not states, they use states. As Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld himself said after 9/11, in words he has apparently forgotten, "the people who do this don't lose, don't have high-value targets. They have networks and fanaticism." Because they are "stateless martyrs," as happy to die as to kill, terrorists cannot be defeated through preventive military victories over countries that may share their agendas or harbor their agents. They have neither an address to which complaints and troops can be sent nor conventional "interests" that can be negotiated or penalized. Al Qaeda is in effect a malevolent NGO.

Terrorists are, in the president's words, "enemies of the civilized world." But what makes the world civilized is its adherence to the rule of law, its insistence that it will not attack adversaries, however evil, unless first attacked by them, its reliance on multilateral cooperation and international courts rather than unilateral military force and the right of the strongest.

The president's policies meet fear with fear, trying to "shock and awe" adversaries into submission. But fear is terrorism's medium, not ours. Democracies that respect the rule of law cannot win wars unilaterally and in defiance of international law -- not when the enemy has no policy but chaos, no end but annihilation (including its own).

Harry Truman once said that all war prevents is peace. Preventive war has neither created peace nor preempted terrorism. The intelligence and police cooperation that the Bush administration has quietly been engaged in has, to the contrary, had more success. But it is directed at terrorists, not rogue states, and it has succeeded through the very cooperation and multilateralism that unilateral preventive war undermines.

Pursuing preventive war at a growing cost in American lives and money against regimes the Bush administration doesn't like or countries that brutalize their own people may appeal to American virtue, but it undermines American security.

The only proper way the United States can honor both its national interests and those who have died in this war and its aftermath is to abandon its failed preventive war doctrine and rejoin the world it has tried in vain to pacify through unilateral preemptive force.

The writer is Kekst professor of civil society at the University of Maryland and the author of "Fear's Empire: War, Terrorism and Democracy."

© 2003 The Washington Post Company
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 09:29 pm
More Big LiesMargolis
Quote:
The crusade against 'terrorism'
Bush and his handlers are not protecting Americans by pursuing the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are protecting their own political skins
By ERIC MARGOLIS -- Contributing Foreign Editor

NEW YORK -- "If at first you don't succeed, lie and lie again" seems to be the watchword of the floundering Bush administration.

First, it was the ultimate evils, bin Laden and Mullah Omar. When they couldn't be found, evil forces "that hate our freedoms." Then Saddam's nuclear weapons, anthrax, mustard, and nerve gas, "drones of death," mobile germ labs, and links to al-Qaida, etc.

Now, in the latest change of sales pitch, the president insists his war on terrorism equals Iraq.

According to Bushthink, any Iraqi opposing U.S. occupying forces is a "terrorist." Ergo, growing Iraqi nationalist resistance will inevitably mean Bush's signature "war on terrorism" will be a growth industry.

Like the gigantic Enron swindle, it's a huge bubble, inflated by false claims and calculated deception.

Straining credulity even farther, the president claimed that waging war in Iraq and Afghanistan would spare America from another 9/11 that might otherwise happen at any moment - though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

It was the duty of the world community, Bush proclaimed, to "share the burden of occupation" of Iraq and Afghanistan - which the White House finally admitted will total at least $166 billion US for this year and next, an astronomical sum that could buy 39 nuclear-powered aircraft carriers. By the end of 2004, Bush's wars could amount to 30% of the total cost of the equally misbegotten 17-year Vietnam War.

Clever rebranding

By cleverly rebranding the invasion of Iraq as the essential part of his crusade against terrorism, Bush and his handlers were clearly counting on their core supporters in middle America to have short memories and a weak grasp of foreign geography and nomenclature.

They are probably right: recent polls confirm 2/3 of confused Americans still believe the nonsense, promoted by the White House and neo-conservatives, that Iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks.

This example of how the White House shamelessly exploited the confusion and ignorance of many Americans about world affairs recalls another famous quote.

Reich Marshall Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg trial: "The people can always be brought to the bidding of leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Indeed.

In an astounding about-face, the Bush administration is now begging "old" Europe, led by those "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" - as Bush's know-nothing supporters called France - and the "irrelevant" UN to send troops and money to Iraq. In Europe, so long abused and slandered by Bush and his supporters, the plaintive request was greeted by sneers.

France's conservative Le Figaro headlined White House pleas for help as "Saving Private Bush."

Congress, terrified of being branded "unpatriotic," will go along with this monumental political and economic folly. While America's economy sags and its states plunge deep in the red, George Bush plans to spend in short order almost as much to wage a hugely expensive colonial war in chaotic Iraq, as the cost of the post-WWII Marshall Plan.

Bush and his handlers are not protecting Americans by pursuing the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are protecting their own political skins.

These twin foreign misadventures are a historic geopolitical, military and economic blunder. Europeans repeatedly warned against invading Iraq. So did genuine Mideast experts, who were dismissed as pro-Arab or, like this writer, as "friends of Saddam." The mushrooming disaster was totally predictable and avoidable.

Absurd claims

It defies understanding how the many intelligent men and women in the Bush administration believed their own absurd claims about the danger posed by Iraq, and stuck America in the worst mess since Vietnam. Mind you, chief "whiz kid" Robert McNamara, the architect of the Vietnam disaster, was also noted for his intellect, as is his heir, Donald Rumsfeld. "Brilliant" VP Dick Cheney actually claimed last spring that Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons. In Washington, arrogance and ignorance too often combined.

Shockingly, Congress's budget office just reported the U.S. will run short of troops in Iraq by spring. Almost half of U.S. Army combat units are tied down in Iraq, Kuwait, and Afghanistan. That's why Bush is trying to bribe or browbeat nations like Turkey, India and Pakistan into sending cannon-fodder troops to Iraq, and force rich Europe to pay part of the bill.

Grand chutzpah

But asking other nations to "share the burden" of an unprovoked invasion of another country takes grand chutzpah.

Aggression is not a burden, it's a crime under the UN Charter. The Bush administration did not invade Iraq to perform social work but to grab its vast oil reserves.

Bush's demand that Third World UN troops serve under orders of American officers is a further insult to the United Nations and will reinforce the belief of those who attacked its Baghdad HQ that the organization is merely a cat's paw of Washington. What Bush should do is declare victory and bring U.S. troops home. Now. Save $166 billion and many, many lives. It's still not too late to climb out of the swamp.
0 Replies
 
Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 09:36 pm
Of course, Professor Hobitbob:

It is possible that trucks speeding by would cause nervous soldiers to fire but my knowledge of the military would lead me to believe that such an incident (firing without being fired upon or attacked) would lead to a thorough investigation and possible court martials.

Mr. Hinteler provides no proof that the incident occured in such a way.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 09:38 pm
My knowledge of the military (6 years active duty, four years Guard) leads me to think that such incidents are likely to be swept under the rug in order to avoid investigations unless someone (like the press) makes an issue of it.
0 Replies
 
Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2003 09:46 pm
Really? Professor Hobitbob?

Well, my two years of experience at JAG( a far more reliable source than what you have) in the US Army leads me to believe that it is almost impossible to sweep such important incidents such as the killing of so many Iraqi policemen under the rug.

Do you have any evidence that there was a cover up? If so, may we see it please?

I always thought that Clinton had sold missle secrets to the Chinese in return for campaign cash but since I had no hard and fast evidence for such a claim, I was forced to abjure it.
0 Replies
 
 

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