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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 05:37 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Think about it. Too few troops, too little equipment, and then plunbging a society into chaos and making little efforts to return basic public utilities. The US war plan is designed to lead to US casualties. The occupation forces are valid targets for partisan action. It doesn't make me very happy, but my happiness is not the prerequisite for reality.


This is completely intellectually dishonest, fodder for a real debate is one thing, but don't just throw drivel in here to get a response.

Hundreds of companies are waiting to go in and help restore and improve quality of life there, but let's see, I believe a war is going on that might hender much of that work. That's the whole point of the border crossers, impead progress, democracy and peace, duh. Go there and try to work on the plumbing, gas lines, power stations and lines, see how long you last before your own dirt nap. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 05:50 pm
Strange, isn't it, that indigenous Iraqi companies that could assist in the rebuilding are not being used? If you read the "Where's Raed" blog, and some of the excerpts from various blogs that have been posted, you would be shocked at how efforts by the Iraqis to assist in reconstruction are frequently and firmly prevented by the occupation forces.
BTW: whare are these "hundreds of companies?" Do you mean Halliburton? My understanding is that they were selected because they have experience in wartime conditions.
As for the "drivel," like the civilian casualties and irate Iraqis you claim to be unable to find evidence for, the conditions that have led to high US casualties are well documented. I believe the burden is now on you, sir, to rebut them, no?
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 05:52 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Craven de Kere wrote:
Indeed, but do you contest the assertion that the US has killed more civilians since 9/11 than those that died in 9/11?

Because though the numbers may be fuzzy they are also so far apart that being off by a subsstantial amount would still not change the validity of that assertion.


I hope we didn't, like you guys I'm not there so I can't be sure, the point is we tried not too, they intended to kill as many as possible. Furthermore, if they get their hands on a nuclear weapon and a means to deliver it, they will. This makes the effort all more important because it's going to bring a lot of things to light like North Korea, Iran etc, as far as that goes. The good thing about N. Korea is they don't want to die,but these islamic crazies just as soon strap a bomb onto themselves or you and me.


One area where I'm pretty sure the numbers won't be fuzzy is if we blew any of the rotted bodies out of the mass graves that Saddam killed, that could raise the count into the millions.

What "Islamic crazies?" The Hussein administration was staunchly secular and nationalist. The resistance to the US occupation is mostly nationalist in character. As for the mass graves, I thought work was being doen to attempt to identify them?


Okay, if you're going to split hairs, I retract the 'Islamic' part of my response, let's just say crazies.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 05:54 pm
Brand X wrote:
Craven de Kere wrote:
Indeed, but do you contest the assertion that the US has killed more civilians since 9/11 than those that died in 9/11?

Because though the numbers may be fuzzy they are also so far apart that being off by a subsstantial amount would still not change the validity of that assertion.


I hope we didn't, like you guys I'm not there so I can't be sure, the point is we tried not too, they intended to kill as many as possible.


I certainly differentiate between intent and result but I think you should check the numbers. Between Afghanistan and Iraq we killed more civilians than those that died on 9/11. By several times.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 05:56 pm
I'm not spliting hairs, I'm trying to understand your position. Are you attempting to equate the Hussein government with international terrorism? Are you speaking about the current situation where there are both indigenous resistance members and outisde forces, or about the situation before the invasion?
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:02 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Strange, isn't it, that indigenous Iraqi companies that could assist in the rebuilding are not being used? If you read the "Where's Raed" blog, and some of the excerpts from various blogs that have been posted, you would be shocked at how efforts by the Iraqis to assist in reconstruction are frequently and firmly prevented by the occupation forces.
BTW: whare are these "hundreds of companies?" Do you mean Halliburton? My understanding is that they were selected because they have experience in wartime conditions.
As for the "drivel," like the civilian casualties and irate Iraqis you claim to be unable to find evidence for, the conditions that have led to high US casualties are well documented. I believe the burden is now on you, sir, to rebut them, no?


No, because the ultimate goal is for less of our people to die that anyone elses, you are so nit picky that you can't see the big picture, you can do the body counts by yourself.

Here goes the broken record again, "Halliburton". If you look at their history I believe you'll find that they have done work in the region for 30 years, and their expertise is in putting out oil fires and repairing pipelines and oil wells. With all that said, could something be fishy about it, yes I agree with you.

There are American and international companies that will work along side Iraqi companies to rebuild. Some of that 87 bil. will come back to us through our companies and back in our economy, but again, they can't start yet.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:06 pm
Ahh, the party line. So refreshing. So independent. So... well... SAFE...! (No need to think; just watch Fox!)
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:09 pm
Is it not possible for a dissenting opinion to be bourne of thought? It's a bit sad to see the dissent consistently characterized as mindless.

This mentality is, in itself, guilty of what it accuses. Discarding the dissent out of hand is inherently thoughless as well. It's bourne of convenience and an adversion to take the opposing viewpoint on it's merit with preference toward an ad hominem ("the guys who don't think like me don't think").
0 Replies
 
Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:19 pm
Brand X- I think you miss the subtleties in Professor Hobobit's exposition.

Are you not aware of the suspicions that, although the US right-wing, as represented by the smooth and slick Wolfowitz, with Kristol lurking in the backround, may indeed have rammed the illegal invasion of Iraq through despite the possibility of having avoided carnage through the good offices of the UN's negotiations.

And why did they do this?

Why, for profits. of course.

Oil!

And why would they not use Iraqi companies?

Any suggestion that Halliburton or other companies would have more expertise or better technology is ridiculous. We know that the Iraqis have superior engineering skills. The only reason the country's infrastructure is falling apart is that Saddam spent much of the money needed to upgrade his country's roads, bridges, and electric power systems on his palaces.

Hobobit is quite right in his suspicions. The Republicans in office care only for money. The reparations of Iraq will put money in the pockets of Bush's friends. Isn't it obvious?
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:26 pm
I commend your comment, Brand X, concerning the fact that some of that money( the 87 Billion) will come back to us.

I do believe that some of the people who work for Halliburton and other companies may actually spend most of that money in the USA.

Listening to Gephardt the other day, I received the distinct impression that the money was going to be buried in the middle of The AL-Anbar Karbala never to be seen again.


I think Gephardt was angry because he couldn't funnel at least part of that money to the AFL-CIO.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:29 pm
They didn't even bother to put those contracts out to bid.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:31 pm
Hehheh. Italgato's just crossed over from sarcasm into emulation. Thats kinda clever actually.

Still wish he could offer something with a little more "body" though - even clever sarcasm gets tired sometimes.
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:31 pm
What you have to remember, Brand X, that when Hobibit indicated that if the American Public's tastes were supreme, the WWF and Britany Spears would be considered "good taste"

Yes, the public is, as Hamilton quipped: " a great beast"

It's too bad you don't have the delicacy, taste and refinement to understand those things, Brand X.
0 Replies
 
Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:33 pm
Dear Mr. nimh- You want body? You won't get any unless you are able to post something with body.


I await your stupendous contribution.

Till now, your posts are easily disposed of with a couple of pithy sentences.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 06:54 pm
Italgato wrote:
Brand X- I think you miss the subtleties in Professor Hobobit's exposition.



Thanks, Italgato, for getting the discussion back to the solid level of Abuzz.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 07:20 pm
Italgato wrote:
Brand X- I think you miss the subtleties in Professor Hobobit's exposition.

Are you not aware of the suspicions that, although the US right-wing, as represented by the smooth and slick Wolfowitz, with Kristol lurking in the backround, may indeed have rammed the illegal invasion of Iraq through despite the possibility of having avoided carnage through the good offices of the UN's negotiations.

And why did they do this?

Why, for profits. of course.

Oil!

And why would they not use Iraqi companies?

Any suggestion that Halliburton or other companies would have more expertise or better technology is ridiculous. We know that the Iraqis have superior engineering skills. The only reason the country's infrastructure is falling apart is that Saddam spent much of the money needed to upgrade his country's roads, bridges, and electric power systems on his palaces.

Hobobit is quite right in his suspicions. The Republicans in office care only for money. The reparations of Iraq will put money in the pockets of Bush's friends. Isn't it obvious?


Am I buying the conspiracy that we're only in Iraq because of the oil? No, even if I was, who was it that paid off Blair and the other 29 or so countries to got to war? Conspiracy's get way out there as they did with Clinton and all the people he supposedly had killed.

We are in control of the mission there, so would we recommend an American company, the best in the business to do the work? Yes. Would we like it if a lot of that billion dollar contract came back to the US? Yes. Are people at the top of said company going to make a lot of money? If they're smart they will. Are a lot of their employee's going to benefit therefor benefiting our country? Yes.

The Iraqi people are sitting on a huge portion of the world's oil finds, we've never stolen one spoon full of it, we've bought any that ever came to these shores from there. When things are settled these folks are going to be wealthy. Remember all those palaces, exotic cars and cash stuffed around Saddam's many fine dwellings? If all goes well that wealth will be spread around Iraq and I think for all we're doing for them and going to do, they should be happy to let America get a little something back for the trouble, like not mind if American companies profit from the rebuild. In addition they should pay us back every cent we spend on their infrastructure as soon as they get on their feet.

We give money away all the time to countries who can't, and countries who won't pay us back, some thanks we get, huh. Iraq has an economic engine, and can afford to pay us back, hopefully they will.

UN good offices? UN, which is a panel of thugs, has but one purpose, to unite against America and extort all the money from our back pocket as they can. An Iraqi sitting on that panel to represent the human right's seat? That's but one example of the lunacy abound within.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 07:23 pm
Brand x wrote:
UN good offices? UN, which is a panel of thugs, has but one purpose, to unite against America and extort all the money from our back pocket as they can. An Iraqi sitting on that panel to represent the human right's seat? That's but one example of the lunacy abound within

Eh? Care to provide evidence for this assertion? BTW, have you a brother named...oh nevermind.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 07:41 pm
Italgato wrote:
Dear Mr. nimh- You want body? You won't get any unless you are able to post something with body.

I await your stupendous contribution.

Till now, your posts are easily disposed of with a couple of pithy sentences.


Well, you never post anything but a couple of pithy sentences, so no surprise about your choice of means there. <giggles>

But I am well willing to remind you that I posted several lengthy, detailed posts in the Ann Coulter thread at your specific request - answering a list of questions that you had laid out for me - and to which you never answered.

So, you can start here:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=351823#351823
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=351998#351998

Note that I'll be gone for most of the weekend, so you have a little time ...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 07:47 pm
Brand X wrote:
UN good offices? UN, which is a panel of thugs, has but one purpose, to unite against America and extort all the money from our back pocket as they can.


Actually, the US is one of the most chronic and notorious defaulters when it comes to member contrbutions in UN history.

As for everything in your post before that - I may starkly disagree with you, but you do have a way with words. It seems the 'balance of forces' in this thread is finally back. Now how to keep it civil (he asked himself as much as the others) ...
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2003 07:56 pm
From Bawl'mer's City Paper:Political Animal
Think Different

By Brian Morton

In their 1967 book, Foundations of Social Psychology, Edward E. Jones and Harold B. Gerard wrote about a religious group whose prophecy of the end of the world fails to come true. Rather than going back to the drawing board, the group's members decide that their own actions saved the world, and then start telling others that theirs is the one true way because they stopped the Apocalypse.

See any similarities to the actions of the present administration?

Back when there was a projected surplus and a balanced budget, we were told a tax cut was needed because the government should give us that money back (although "us" mostly turned out to be rich people). When the surplus evaporated and it began to look like a return to deficits, we were told the tax cut would halt the decline and stop a recession. Then, when the economy kept sliding, jobs kept disappearing, and deficits were forecast as far as the eye can see, the president told us that if it weren't for the tax cuts, the recession would have been worse.

We are now two years past the horror of Sept. 11, 2001. We have since invaded two sovereign nations, bombing them "into the Stone Age," as the nation's more aggressive warmongers like to say. We were told to support an invasion into Iraq, because Iraq was harboring chemical weapons, biological weapons, and possibly even nuclear weapons. In his State of the Union, President Bush told us that "evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al-Qaida." He said that we could not afford for the so-called smoking gun of evidence against Iraq to turn out to come "in the form of a mushroom cloud."

We alienated our historical allies in Europe, upsetting an alliance that has lasted since the end of World War II. Our defense secretary sneeringly derided the skepticism of France and Germany as that of "Old Europe," and the neo-conservative hawks at the engine of our war machine scoffed and marginalized the United Nations' sanctions and inspections. We were told that after Saddam was overthrown the Iraqis would welcome us with open arms, with showers of flower petals, with a new commitment to freedom and democracy that would act like a domino effect throughout the Middle East.

Our commander in chief landed on an aircraft carrier five months ago to stage an elaborate photo opportunity and pronounce "mission accomplished" in Iraq. He said that combat operations were over. Five months later, the administration quietly edited that phrase to read "major" combat operations are over.

Now we face a bill for 87 billion more dollars, on top of the estimated billion a day we had to spend up to this point to upend Saddam's regime and maintain a meek illusion of order in Iraq. More soldiers have died trying to keep the peace than lost their lives winning the war. Ten U.S. soldiers a day, on average, are wounded enough to have to be sent home.

Osama bin Laden is still believed to be alive, plotting and in hiding. Saddam is still believed to be alive, plotting and in hiding. Afghanistan is once again a forgotten haven of religious unrest, the Taliban on an upsurge.

Whose fault is it, we are asked? It is ours.

Those who question the administration are accused of sapping the national will. Those in the military who complain of overuse of the force structure are seen as out of line. Those skeptical of the lack of an exit strategy are labeled as in league with Saddam. Those who mention the word "quagmire," a phrase from the Vietnam War era, are considered defeatists.

The saddest part is, we're stuck. We cannot shoulder the burden of Iraq alone, we cannot continue to operate in Iraq and Afghanistan with the same numbers of forces we have in the past, especially with North Korea each day escalating a game of nuclear chicken. And we cannot do it after the massive double giveaway to the wealthy of the Bush tax cuts.

There's no exit strategy--because there is no exit. We are nailed in place for a long time, with not enough money in our pockets and targets on our backs. We have goaded our adversaries, alienated our friends, and lied to our citizens. The so-called war on terror has been revealed as a march into the briar patch, and the administration continues to change the terms of the debate the way Napoleon the pig used to change the rules painted on the barn wall in George Orwell's Animal Farm.

Jones and Gerard had an interesting definition for "cognitive dissonance." It is, they wrote, "inconsistency among related beliefs [that] produces motivation to do whatever is easiest in order to regain cognitive consistency or consonance among beliefs."

This administration won't think any differently unless we do.
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