0
   

The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
crumbles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 05:47 pm
Well, CI, it's just goes to show what a bunch of bald faced hypocritical liars's that hold the reigns of the most powerful nation in the world are. Say one thing, do another and hope no one notices.

My favorite all-time Bush lie is the campaign promise of being a uniter, not a divider. Is there any one at all in the entire world that believes that canard at this point?

Hypocrite alert November 11th, 2003:

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2003/11/11/2003075390

And of course todays headline:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20031111/ts_nm/iraq_bush_dc

"President Bush...said on Tuesday that some of the guerrillas that U.S. forces are facing there are fighting to establish a Taliban-like government in Iraq. "

Any one think for a second that the Taliban would have had any chance of gaining any sort of foothold in Saddam-ruled Iraq? Thanks to our idiot foreign policy, the Taliban is regaining popularity in Pakistan and Afghanistan (where?), and is (if Bushco is to believed at all) making making significant appearances in the formerly unthought of Iraq, where the secular-minded (and iron fisted) Sunni/Bathist rulership was at fundamental odds with religious fanactism of Mullah Omar.

Fun times,

crumbles
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 05:50 pm
I'm not so sure trying to compare Germany and Japan to Iraq has any relevance.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 05:52 pm
Re: Question
crumbles wrote:

I'm particularly dissapointed that the one poster who insisted they would not change their minds under any circumstance was from the left. One of the best traits of the left is to be able to assess different points of view with equal weight - we are "liberal" in the best possible defination.


I disagree with your characterization of liberals but agree wholeheartedly that the opinions should be factual in criteria instead of partisan. Let me comment on your take before giving mine.

Quote:
1. Body count


This was never really a factor for me. The body count has gone exactly as I expected, were it to be inordinately low or much higher my opinion might change but at these levels it was already a part of my ratiocination.

Quote:
2) Weapons of Mass Distruction found. Not planted. Significant quantities. And not former WMD, such as chemical weapons way past their due date.


This is the big one for me. I have, since the very beginning of this mess, asserted that Iraq posed no threat to the US.

It seems to have been a now validated notion but were it the opposite situation I'd have changed my position drastically as I would have been wrong.

Quote:
Depending on the quantities and quality of the WMD found, there might also need to be corraborating documents detailing an imminent attack on US soil or forces before I can see a clear reason to support our action.


Not for me, but they'd have to be "significant" WMDs. Not just anthrax or some dual purpose items.

Quote:
3) It is uncovered that Saddam in fact DID have close ties to al Queda and had some influence in the 9-11 attack.


I found the chances of this so slight that I did not give it much consideration. But I agree, if there were a connection my opinion would have been dramatically altered.

Quote:
4) The installation of a non-puppet self-reliant Iraqi government within 2 years


This won't change my opinion, I already think there will be real self-rule (though perhaps not in that time frame) and I think Iraq will be improved. But this does not change my position because my position is that many countries could be improved by a US invasion but that it does not make unprovoked invasion justified.

Quote:
5) The mid east region becomes stabilized in the next year.


This would change my opinion of Bush's intent for the mideast but would not change my opinion of the war unless the war actually helps.

Quote:

6) More mass graves found. Not going to happen of course. But the fact that there was indeed a humanitarian crisis in the late 80's/early 90's has no bearing whatsoever in regards to our recent action. Indeed, those mass graves get far more press today than when they were originally discovered, leading me to think that those who trot them out as a justification for war are humanitarians only when it suits them.


This would have only changed my opinion if this had been a previously known factor.

My reasoning goes: if I kill a man and find out afterward that he was about to kill a million people it is serendipitous, not justified.


Here's my take:

The only completely solid justification for pre-emption is the urgent need for self-defense. Killing the whole planet may indeed make you safer but to justify pre-emption by my book one has to show that the pre-emption directly preceeds the danger it aims to pre-empt.

So if it was discovered that Iraq was indeed a threat to the US I would change my opinion. There is a strict criteria for this (e.g. not just finding a WMD).

My next criteria would be global acceptance. My reasoning is that individual morality should not supercede collective morality where possible. Though I might disagree the majority supercede my individual opinion.
0 Replies
 
crumbles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 06:35 pm
>So if it was discovered that Iraq was indeed a >threat to the US I would change my opinion. >There is a strict criteria for this (e.g. not just >finding a WMD).

There are two ways of looking at our Iraq policy:

Whether or not the invasion itself is justified.

And whether or not you agree with the invasion itself, whether you see the situation will "turn out for the best" or not.

Right now, virtually 100% people who were against the invasion in the first place agree that it is NOT "turning out for the best".

IMO, more and more people who were inititially for liberation are becoming increasingly doubtful about the prospects that it is for the best. As time goes on, I expect to see the popularity of our presence there to decrease rapido.

For my part, I can concede that even if the invasion itself was "wrong, illegal, etc.", that it is possible that Iraq, it's people, the region, and our own country, may turn out better than if we had not taken this route. But there's alot of big if's in there, and it don't look good at this point.

I'll respond to Asherman's post later on

crumbles
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 06:37 pm
Quote:
US-Brit war killed 55,000 Iraqi civilians


By Shaista Aziz

Wednesday 12 November 2003, 2:27 Makka Time, 23:27 GMT



The invasion, war and occupation of Iraq has cost up to 55,000 civilian lives, according to a shocking new report published by a UK-based charity.



Now the medical charity is lobbying the American and British governments to focus urgently on the healthcare needs of the Iraqi population, following the invasion of the country.

Medact's damning report highlighting the devastating impact of war on the Iraqi population, reveals that between 22,000 and 55,000 Iraqi civilians died during the bombing of the country.

The report titled, Continuing Collateral Damage: the health and environmental costs of war on Iraq, says that the American and British occupiers are obliged under international law to ensure that the healthcare needs of the population are met.


Findings

One of the co-authors of the report, Dr Sabya Farooq told Aljazeera.net that the situation across Iraq was desperate.

''There has been a reported increase in maternal mortality rates, acute malnutrition has almost doubled from 4% to 8% in the last year and there has been an increase in water - borne disease and vaccine -preventable diseases.''

Iraq has a population of 25 million people, half of whom are under the age of eighteen. Children are particularly venerable in post war Iraq, with 1 in 4 not receiving immunisation against measles since Saddam Hussein was removed from power.

The charity found that mines and unexploded bombs are continuing to kill and mane. The effects of chemicals such as depleted uranium used by invading forces on civilians, could take decades to manifest.

Pre-Conflict

Dr Farooq told Aljazeera.net that before the recent invasion of Iraq, the country had a poor record on health care, but the situation now is at breaking point.

'Iraq was never a third world country, it had a fairly developed healthcare system that was able to deliver to the population'

Dr Sabya Farooq, Medact

In 1990, the UN development Index, which ranks countries in terms of provisions of healthcare, education and life expectancy rates, placed Iraq 50th out of 130 countries. By 2003 and before the recent invasion of the country, Iraq had dropped to 126th out of 174 countries.

''Iraq was never a third world country, it had a fairly developed infrastructure and healthcare system that was able to deliver to the population. Now, the escalating violence post war Iraq is creating huge problems.''

''The effects of the war will impact on the healthcare of future generations and with the way things stand, the situation will get worse.''

Support

Medact is also calling for better support for Iraqi doctors and healthcare workers, who are working under increasingly difficult conditions ''This report hasn't even touched on the trauma that doctors in Iraq have and are suffering. They are working on the frontline and are subjected to violence themselves on an almost daily basis.''

Dr Farooq says that it's important for doctors and development workers to speak up about what is really happening in Iraq

''Healthcare workers have a duty to speak out and let the outside world know about what's happening in Iraq, we have to speak up to make sure that civilians aren't suffering any more than they already are.''


The charity is calling on the UN to send peacekeepers to Iraq so that humanitarian and reconstruction work can begin.


Aljazeera
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 06:46 pm
crumbles,

I am in the camp that finds it an unjustified war but I do not share the post war pessimism (or realistic accessment of the difficulties if you prefer ;-) ).

I believe Iraq can and will be improved. I believed this before the war but do not think being able to improve a nation grants the justification to invade it.
0 Replies
 
crumbles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 06:51 pm
>22,000 and 55,000 Iraqi civilians

Holy crap! That's 10-20x the toll of 9-11.

Question posed to those supporting the invasion and who discount the idea of a limit of acceptable body counts, both civilian and military...are you sure there is no limit?

How about 300,001? One more than the oft reported mass graves.

No?

How about 1,000,000?

No?

How about 17m - roughly the entire population of Iraq?

Would that be too much?

How about 6 billion?

Still not too much?

Clearly, there won't be near that amount (fingers crossed Wink)...but I hope you get the point... Unless you are a machine, there IS a limit of acceptable losses. Where is yours?

As I recall, Army regulations forbid the killing of more than 10% of the population - because to do so causes long lasting psychological trauma upon the nation in quesiton.

But that may have been changed by the current Administration.

crumbles
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 07:08 pm
Gels, I hope that that report is mistaken. I don't know who this UK-based charity organization is supposed to be, but nameless reports on casualty figures are suspect. The previous reports that 15,000 civilian and military were killed still exceeds any number I would have thought "justified" on the basis that our preemptive strike was necessary to stop the use of WMD's by Saddam. If the 55,000 civilian kills are true, how does anyone justify what our country did in invading Iraq? How would Americans feel if another country invaded the US and killed 55,000 of our citizens by a preemptive strike because they feared the WMD's in our war stockpile?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 07:16 pm
hobitbob, I am disappointed in your posts of today. Your earlier obscenity could not be seen in context until you posted this:

Quote:
Hello weaselboy! After six years of active and four years of Guard service I have less than zero respect for the institution and the losers who are career enlisted. The military thrives on mediocrity. The military rewards blind obedience and condemns independent thought. It also encourages a sort of lowest common denominator existance. It was a definite eye-opener. Those of us with more than one functioning brain cell took what it had to offer and skedaddled! No more all expenses paid vacations to such garden spots as Iraq, Somolia, or some of the finer training areas in Germany and the Ft. Lewis Military Reservation for me!


I have respect for people who enter the military, as I respect others who take on risky jobs: policemen and firemen, as well as other rescuers and defenders. Your anger seems out of line. Perhaps your bitterness lies not with the "mediocrity" you found in the service (they are, after all, just a cross section of the populace) but in some personal reaction to the fact that you spent more time there than you should have.

There are people who thrive in high-risk situations, and surely the military has more than its share of those personalities. We are lucky to have them. There are others who want to lead and see the military, in war or peacetime, as a place to do so. Some enlistees enter the troops for other reasons: lack of opportunity elsewhere, desire for education, etc. But they know the risks and are making a trade-off.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 08:29 pm
THE ENTIRE REPORT IS HERE
If the military deaths are added the toll is above 100000 .....
What about the deaths directly related to sanctions ....
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 08:43 pm
Brutal Honesty?
I think it is of little thought to most Americans how many Iraqies have been killed by Americans, Brits and Aussies. If American casualities were not manifest, I seriously doubt that more than a handful of Americans would be alarmed by Iraqi deaths or wounded.

The fact that probably around 50% of Americans still support the Fascist Neo con Regime in the US points to either ignorance of this percentage of people or delusion of what this regime is really about.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 08:49 pm
SANCTION'S COST TO THE IRAQI PEOPLE


Quote:
article | Posted November 15, 2001
A Hard Look at Iraq Sanctions
by David Cortright


Print this article
E-mail this article
Write to the editors
he humanitarian disaster resulting from sanctions against Iraq has been frequently cited as a factor that motivated the September 11 terrorist attacks. Osama bin Laden himself mentioned the Iraq sanctions in a recent tirade against the United States. Critics of US policy in Iraq claim that sanctions have killed more than a million people, many of them children. Saddam Hussein puts the death toll at one and a half million. The actual numbers are lower than that, although still horrifying.

Changing American policy in Iraq is an urgent priority, both for humanitarian reasons and as a means of addressing an intensely felt political grievance against the United States. An opportunity for such a change may come soon, as the UN Security Council considers a "smart sanctions" plan to ease civilian sanctions. As we work to change US policy and relieve the pain of the Iraqi people, it is important that we use accurate figures and acknowledge the shifting pattern of responsibility for the continuing crisis.

The grim question of how many people have died in Iraq has sparked heated debate over the years. The controversy dates from 1995, when researchers with a Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) study in Iraq wrote to The Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society, asserting that sanctions were responsible for the deaths of 567,000 Iraqi children. The New York Times picked up the story and declared "Iraq Sanctions Kill Children." CBS followed up with a segment on 60 Minutes that repeated the numbers and depicted sanctions as a murderous assault on children. This was the program in which UN ambassador (and later Secretary of State) Madeleine Albright, when asked about these numbers, coldly stated, "The price is worth it."

Albright's comments were shocking, as were the numbers, but doubts were soon raised about their validity. A January 1996 letter to The Lancet found inconsistencies in the mortality figures. A follow-up study in 1996, using the same methodology, found much lower rates of child mortality. In October 1997 the authors of the initial letter wrote again to The Lancet, this time reporting that mortality rates in the follow-up study were "several-fold lower than the estimate for 1995--for unknown reasons." While the initial report of more than 567,000 deaths attracted major news coverage, the subsequent disavowal of those numbers passed unnoticed in the press.

The two most reliable scientific studies on sanctions in Iraq are the 1999 report "Morbidity and Mortality Among Iraqi Children," by Columbia University's Richard Garfield, and "Sanctions and Childhood Mortality in Iraq," a May 2000 article by Mohamed Ali and Iqbal Shah in The Lancet. Garfield, an expert on the public-health impact of sanctions, conducted a comparative analysis of the more than two dozen major studies that have analyzed malnutrition and mortality figures in Iraq during the past decade. He estimated the most likely number of excess deaths among children under five years of age from 1990 through March 1998 to be 227,000. Garfield's analysis showed child mortality rates double those of the previous decade.

Ali, a researcher at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, and Shah, an analyst for the World Health Organization in Geneva, conducted a demographic survey for UNICEF in cooperation with the government of Iraq. In early 1999 their study surveyed 40,000 households in south-central Iraq and in the northern Kurdish zone. In south-central Iraq, child mortality rates rose from 56 per 1,000 births for the period 1984-89 to 131 per 1,000 for the period 1994-99. In the autonomous Kurdish region in the north, Ali and Shah found that child mortality rates actually fell during the same period, from 80 per 1,000 births to 72 per 1,000.

Garfield has recently recalculated his numbers, based on the additional findings of the Ali and Shah study, to arrive at an estimate of approximately 350,000 through 2000. Most of these deaths are associated with sanctions, according to Garfield, but some are also attributable to destruction caused by the Gulf War air campaign, which dropped 90,000 tons of bombs in forty-three days, a far more intensive attack than the current strikes against Afghanistan. The bombing devastated Iraq's civilian infrastructure, destroying eighteen of twenty electricity-generating plants and disabling vital water-pumping and sanitation systems. Untreated sewage flowed into rivers used for drinking water, resulting in a rapid spread of infectious disease. Comprehensive trade sanctions compounded the effects of the war, making it difficult to rebuild, and adding new horrors of hunger and malnutrition.


THE COMPLETE ARTICLE
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 09:41 pm
Army Pfc. Jesse A. Givens, 34, of Springfield, Mo. Private Givens was killed May 1 when his tank fell into the Euphrates River after the bank on which he was parked gave way. This letter was written to be delivered to his family if he died. Melissa is his wife, Dakota his 6-year-old stepson and Bean the name he used for his son, Carson, who was born May 29.

The Things They Wrote

Quote:
My family,

I never thought that I would be writing a letter like this. I really don't know where to start. I've been getting bad feelings, though and, well, if you are reading this. . . .

The happiest moments in my life all deal with my little family. I will always have with me the small moments we all shared. The moments when you quit taking life so serious and smiled. The sounds of a beautiful boy's laughter or the simple nudge of a baby unborn. You will never know how complete you have made me. You saved me from loneliness and taught me how to think beyond myself. You taught me how to live and to love. You opened my eyes to a world I never dreamed existed.

Dakota . . . you taught me how to care until it hurts, you taught me how to smile again. You taught me that life isn't so serious and sometimes you just have to play. You have a big, beautiful heart. Through life you need to keep it open and follow it. Never be afraid to be yourself. I will always be there in our park when you dream so we can play. I love you, and hope someday you will understand why I didn't come home. Please be proud of me.

Bean, I never got to see you but I know in my heart you are beautiful. I know you will be strong and big-hearted like your mom and brother. I will always have with me the feel of the soft nudges on your mom's belly, and the joy I felt when I found out you were on your way. I love you, Bean.

Melissa, I have never been as blessed as the day I met you. You are my angel, soulmate, wife, lover and best friend. I am sorry. I did not want to have to write this letter. There is so much more I need to say, so much more I need to share. A lifetime's worth. I married you for a million lifetimes. That's how long I will be with you. Please keep my babies safe. Please find it in your heart to forgive me for leaving you alone. . . . Teach our babies to live life to the fullest, tell yourself to do the same.

I will always be there with you, Melissa. I will always want you, need you and love you, in my heart, my mind and my soul. Do me a favor, after you tuck the children in. Give them hugs and kisses from me. Go outside and look at the stars and count them. Don't forget to smile.

Love Always,
Your husband,
Jess
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 09:53 pm
That actually almost made me cry <nods>.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 11:01 pm
Dr. June Snow, President, and founding member, of Medact, is a committed globalist ... "not that there's anything wrong with that", but it would understandably be expected to influence a distinctly anti-US stance, with a corresponding impact on objectivity. I note too that while the "55,000" figure blazes from headlines, the actual report states its findings are "tentative", and says
Quote:
... The impact of war on health is usually assessed primarily in terms of its most direct and visible effects - death and injury through conflict. Between 7,800 and 9,600 Iraqi civilians are estimated to have died in this way, and 394 Coalition combatants. Estimates of the number of Iraqi military deaths range from 13,500 - 45,000. In the absence of official body counts, the final toll will probably never be known.

There's that Body Count thing again. I note too that the "ongoing health crisis" so shockingly disclosed by the report, its primary focus, is pretty much the "ongoing health crisis" Oxfam, The UN, and other NGOs have been publicizing for over a decade and apparently proceeds from an assumption that Coalition efforts have had no ammeliorative effect, an assumption challenged by substantial reportage to the contrary.

In the interest of balance, here's a differently biased piece, with some "harder" numbers:
Quote:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/images/logo.gif


THE WESTERN FRONT

Fighting Back
In Iraq, the good news is the bad news is dead.

BY BRENDAN MINITER


Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:01 a.m.

Just about every media organization seems to have gotten the message that it should report the good news along with the bad in Iraq. So along with every report of an American soldier killed, we can now expect the obligatory quote from an administration official pointing out that there are plenty of positive developments in Iraq. Yet one positive story that gets little media attention and consequently leaves many Americans wondering how well the war is going is what happens after American soldiers are attacked. Why aren't retaliatory strikes reported more prominently?
Virtually every attack on American soldiers has drawn a response from coalition forces. The world is seeing that now--after the downing of three American helicopters, including a Black Hawk--with the strikes by F-16s with precision guided 500-pound bombs. Iraq hasn't been the scene of such massive American firepower since April. The enemy is being made to pay a hefty price for each and every attack.

These spectacular strikes are but a small piece in the larger war raging in Iraq. That missile attack launched on the al Rashid Hotel in Baghdad when Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz was staying there was widely reported. He was unharmed, but the attack killed an American officer, scarred the outside of the building (which has made a good TV visual whenever the story is repeated), and scared many reporters who breathlessly reported how lawless the city must be if such an attack was possible.

But the military followed up by catching 18 suspects. Once in custody, the thugs were quick to rat out their friends. Those arrests led to the arrest of two dozen more enemy fighters.

This was no isolated success. Coalition forces are routinely catching the men who are planning and carrying out attacks on soldiers and civilian infrastructure:

• The 101st Airborne nabbed seven individuals suspected of perpetrating attacks on American troops on Nov. 7 by conducting a series of nighttime cordon and "knocks" (entering homes). The suspects also allegedly harbored weapons caches.

• The 82nd Airborne detained five anticoalition fighters--one a former Republican Guard lieutenant colonel--on Nov. 6. The five men are regime loyalists and were sought out by U.S. forces because they're believed to have planned and carried out attacks.

• On Nov. 6 coalition forces were monitoring the site of a seized weapons cache when they spotted two men looking for the rocket-propelled grenade launcher and other munitions. When the men spotted the soldiers, they ran. They were ordered to halt, but one--who was carrying an AK-47--opened fire instead. The soldiers shot back, killing him and catching three others.

• The 12th Infantry Regiment was attacked with 10 rockets on Nov. 7. Soldiers spotted where the rockets were coming from and returned fire. A patrol simultaneously closed in on the enemy's position. The attackers attempted to flee as the soldiers approached, but all three were shot down and killed as they ran.

• The 82nd Airborne carried out the first phase of Operation All American Tiger on Nov. 6, detaining three members of an anticoalition cell in Husaybah and several others. The men caught are suspected not only of carrying out attacks but also of providing safe houses, weapons, transportation and funding to militants.

• On Nov. 7 one division carried out 168 patrols--eight of them jointly with Iraqi border guards and policemen--as well as two raids and three cordon searches. The operations yielded 39 detainees, including several individuals known to be involved in attacks on coalition forces.

• A man believed to be a former bodyguard of Saddam Hussein was captured in an early-morning raid on Nov. 8 south of Kirkuk. Coalition forces went after him after learning of his possible involvement in attacks.

• On Nov. 7, acting on the tip from a local sheik, members of the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment seized a large weapons cache 20 miles northeast of Fallujah. The following day they returned to the same site and found another large stockpile of weaponry, including 194 152mm artillery shells, 84 antitank missiles, 45 high-explosive and fragmentation rockets, 34 155mm artillery shells, four 57mm rounds, five 115mm rounds and one 125mm antitank round as well as thousands of rounds of small arms ammunition.

The death of an American soldier is front page news, while the death of his attacker is buried deep inside the paper, if reported at all. But there's another reason why the response to attacks are rarely reported. The military judiciously applies force, which means there's often no big explosion to show the viewing public back home. The enemy blows up civilians, while coalition forces use precision strikes to remove enemy combatants. But more to the point, the media are a lazy beast and, it seems, the Pentagon hasn't been doing a good job feeding it.

Mr. Miniter is assistant editor of OpinionJournal.com. His column appears Tuesdays.


Copyright © 2003 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reerved


The perception of chaos within Iraq is nothing more than a media event. Given the liberal bias of mass media, and the fact that "Good news isn't good for ratings", the infotainment industry may be expected to pander to those who desperately want to believe the worst. You've got to remember these are the same folks who warned an attack on Iraq would result in thousands of body bags coming back to the US, destabilize the entire Mideast, cause a humanitartian refugee disaster of biblical proportions, and who, once things were under way, were alarmed at and highly critical of the "slow pace" of the most rapid, longest sustained, continuous advance against armed opposition in all of recorded history, which advance, BTW, was achieved at the lowest casualty cost ever achieved in modern warfare. The current intensification of action is indicative of a vigorous, and highly successful, offensive being now being undertaken by Coalition Forces. In conjunction with the current 130,000+ (and growing day-by-day) Coalition-trained indiginous Iraqi security personnel, the bad guys will find the developing situation significantly reducing their freedom to operate. You have to remember too that the folks who stand to gain the most by negative news from Iraq are the very same folks who are currently reeling from the shock and awe brought on by the latest economic reports. They refused to see that coming too. Some folks just don't want to get it.

Here's a conjecture: Watch for major shakups involving the Interim Governing Council, The Coalition Provisional Authority, and possibly even Bremmer himself over the coming days. I don't expect the recently announced steel tariff will be around much longer either, but that has little to do with Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 11:39 pm
Timber, I would ask how many dead would begin to register with your overwhelming ability to rationalize but I grow dizzy chasing my tail. Death just has no affect on your sensibilities or you have no sensibilities. War is what you appreciate and death is just written into the script to add realism. That's not blood, it's only ketchup ..... that child is not dead, just napping. It's ok to kill a stranger whose crime is one of happenstance, if, a change cannot be effected in their political or moral outlook to be more reflective of our own. Different or more complex thinking is to be resisted. The guilt of a dictator is to be shared by those that do not oppose his tyranny for fear of their life..
Last but not least never ever admit to a mistake ....... even if it means the death of another human being.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2003 01:04 am
Gel, you presume much in your tail chasing. Some of what you presume is unwarranted, particularly as regards the value of life. Regardless the provence of the "justifications" for toppling the Ba'athists, that has been done. What is of immediate consequence is the rehabillitation of Iraq. I believe The US would be grateful for broader support and more substantive sharing of the load, and appreciative, but I also believe that if it comes to it, The US can and will do it alone. Should that be necessary, further global polarization is to be expected, a development which would serve no one's interest. I believe the US intention is a secure, prosperous, sovereign, autonomous Iraq as rapidly as is prudently acheivable. I believe The US has no desire to exploit Iraq as a vassal state, but rather intends a regional stabilization to ensue from demonstration of no ulterior motive. I believe that Iraq's internal security and human services capacity will improve exponentially over the next few weeks and months, with dramatic improvement by year end.
I believe it likely a "last gasp" effort will be mounted shortly by the insurgents, and I believe that effort will fail conclusively. Those all are merely my beliefs, based on my observation and assessment of the situation. Should those beliefs prove mistaken, of course I'd admit having been mistaken. I have never been pleased with the focus on physical WMD. I have never been pleased with the perception that the function of either UNSCOM or UNMOVIC was to discover WMD. I have never been pleased with with the implication of "existing imminent threat".
I have never been pleased with "Peace at any cost", either, or with what some people will tolerate or ignore in its pursuit. I believe it unacceptably imprudent to stand idly by while another madman "suddenly" presents an "imminent threat" to the entire planet. As I recall, a great deal of faith was placed in, and chillingly similar argument in support of, the misperception that Hitler was a safely contained and reliably restrained despot. I'm not pleased at all by the prospect of repeating that mistake.
I believe it. I could be wrong. I'm just calling it as I see it.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2003 03:45 am
timberlandko wrote:
I have never been pleased with the focus on physical WMD. I have never been pleased with the perception that the function of either UNSCOM or UNMOVIC was to discover WMD. I have never been pleased with with the implication of "existing imminent threat".


Surely this was the only grounds for prosecuting the war?
In this country at least, and I believe also in yours, the only legal basis for the war was to remove weapons that could harm us or our allies (Israel) and to deal with a "clear and present danger". These weapons, we now know, did not exist. We were lied to. There was no such threat.

From the beginning I, and people like me, have said this action was illegal and immoral. And so it has proved to be.

Lawyers are meeting now to decide whether Tony Blair should be prosecuted as a war criminal, and I believe that he should.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2003 03:57 am
Gearge Bush should be hanged, as the Nazi's before him were.

And if the war was justifiable because of Saddam's crimes, then why hasn't the US invaded Zimbabwe? I'll tell you why.

Because they've got no f***ing oil.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Nov, 2003 04:29 am
Another Madman
"while another madman "suddenly" presents an "imminent threat" to the entire planet."

The name of that madman is George W. Bush. Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 05/19/2025 at 07:09:30