timberlandko wrote:Gel wrote:Lets see here .... political ..... political, and political. Sooooooooooo .... #1 would mean, I assume, be capable of defending her self against an imperialist invading army.
The critical concerns are internal security and border control. Defense against imaginary boogeymen is not a factor.
<<< What would you call the Iran/Iraq war? >>>
Quote:#2 The faction in control of the other two must be capable of imposing rules that satisfies the religious and socialogical values of all three factions.
Control by faction is not to be. That is the entire point.
<<< You want them to give up their faith and become born again Christians? They do not get along!! >>>
Quote:#3 What would be the problem with allowing the people that constructed the infrastructure in the frst place be the people to reconstruct it?
Iraq has engineers and tradesman and with a 70% unemployment rate they have plenty of available labor.
That is precisely what is intended, and what is being accomplished. The Iraqi's are rebuilding their own nation. Indiginous contractors, employing locals, already are performing much of the actual work, and doing so competently and in increasing proportion.
<<< How do you spell 'Haliburton and Bechtel'? >>>
Quote:And the time allowed should be as long as it takes right?
Of course. And it will work, and it will not take as long as some suppose.
<<<< What do you base that on? >>>>
What many perceive as a strengthening of resistance is in fact the opposite; it is a reaction by the insurgents to an offensive against them by Coalition Forces. The insurgents are being sorely pressed, and are meeting with both military disaster and erosion of local support. This is a new phase in the war, and may be expected to be successful. Most of the intelligence used by Coalition Forces now comes directly from Iraqis themselves. This is a necessary evolution, and will bear ever more fruit.
<<< What do you base that on? >>>
In honour of Veterans day:
**** the Military! It is the least useful group of individuals gathered anywhere, and folks whoa re career enlisted are often there becasue they are too incompetent to do anything else! What does NCO stand for? No Chance on the Outside!
Just love these comparisons!
Wow, America! We're so great! We killed fewer Iraqis during a preemptive strike than Saddam did (if the figures are correct...) Isn't that great? Doesn't that make you feel better? That the Iraqis are "less badly off in that regard presently than they had been prior to the latest intervention"?
Such find words. Or is this sophistry of the kind that keeps corrupt politicians humming and checking their bank accounts?
timber,
Perhaps you didn't catch Asherman saying everyone else is "pampered" and "protected" by the military. Or McG offering to offer thanks to his family for me.
The military has not ever "protected" me. Not once. My family has a long military history as well. I'm not going to declare that others need to thank my family and offer to do it for them.
The notion that everyone enjoys "freedoms" because of the military is a farce. Militaries are just as responsible for denying freedoms as protecting them. The balmy folk on all sides just make the wars more likley to happen.
hobit,
I'm sure most military folk can do just fine on the "outside".
And a merry **** off to you Hobitbob.
I take it from your wrath against the military that they wouldn't accept you? Was it the fact you couldn't pass the aptitude tests or was it that you couldn't stop jerking off to Jane Fonda?
Agree wholeheartedly with Craven.
Particularly when he's a large yellow cat.
McGentrix,
Just please note that I do not harbor any ill will toward the military personnel. You mentioned that earlier and I want to make that clear.
My qualm is with the romanicizing and the notion that we are indebted to militaries.
Craven de Kere wrote:McGentrix,
Just please note that I do not harbor any ill will toward the military personnel. You mentioned that earlier and I want to make that clear.
My qualm is with the romanicizing and the notion that we are indebted to militaries.
See, the military saved my life and has protected me and has given me many things in life.
The next time there is a natural disaster in the US, the National Gaurd (military) will be there helping fellow Americans to safety and protecting them. The next time some countries government decides to harbor terrorists they will look and see what our military did to the last government which did so and maybe think it's not such a good idea. I hope that you never have to feel indebted to the military for anything. That means they are doing there jobs.
CdK, I'm not a real big fan of bathos either, and I don't see "A debt owed to the military". I respect your position, and in large part share it. It is certainly, at the very least, far more rational, reasoned, mature, and honorably founded than some of the positions stated here over the last few posts. If any embarrassment is warranted, it falls to those who have, as so often is the wont of such, allowed their emotions, preconceptions, and prejudices to outweigh their responsibilities and overcome their social development.
Quote:By Amnesty International, Oxfam, and UN estimates, a figure of 1.5 Million Iraqi civilian deaths attributable to Saddam and his Ba'athists over the 30 years of their regime would be a conservative tally. That works out to some 50,000 per year, a somewhat more disturbing count than 15,000 over a 9 month period, or do I have the math wrong?
Timber, are you trying to prove that we are better than Saddam Hussein? Here I've been thinking that we must consider our actions on their own, as good or bad, and not make ourselves look good by comparing us to the most evil thing we can find.
No, Kara, I'm not trying to prove or justify anything. I merely offered a less narrow perspective. What can be proved is that Iraq has long been a disaster. What I believe is being proved is that Iraq is now afforded real opportunity for remedy. Others do not believe that to be the case.
The left's nose must be huge! It seems that it can't see past it.
Kara,
Mass graves with 300,000 bodies in it... If it takes the loss of 15,000 to save millions, that is a cost worth paying. Future generations that grow up outside the influence of a Hussein or Baathist regime will certainly agree.
Some of the subsequent posts made me regret very much having brought it up. Especially since this is veteran's day and I was not aware of it.
My qualm is with the marriage of military sacrifice to an ideal.
Each military lauds their "greatness" and calls their dead heros. What I contend is that there is no automatic connection between a military act (and death) to the ideals. I like freedom, but that does not mean I agree that the military has afforded me any freedoms I have.
When terrorists call their dead "martyrs" they help continue the trend and cause more death, when militaries preach that they are honorable and serve an honorable cause and that their dead are all "heroes" they do the same.
What I reject is the notion that militaries serve to protect freedoms and ideals, militaries are rarely so one-minded and their actions rarely so simple.
That being said I can't comprehend the animosity expressed towards those in the military. And I'm damn sorry to have brought it up now.
If you have the colossal hubris to think you are able to make such decisions, McGentrix, then power to you.
As to "Bodycount" as a measure of military accomplishment, I would submit that The US abandoned the practice following Vietnam. The Media, however, appears firmly fixated on the concept, despite the fact contemporary students and practioners of the art of war have repudiated it as meaningless and even contraindicative.
CdK wrote:Some of the subsequent posts made me regret very much having brought it up. Especially since this is veteran's day and I was not aware of it ...
That being said I can't comprehend the animosity expressed towards those in the military. And I'm damn sorry to have brought it up now.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'd say some folks have just removed any doubt as to the weight of their credentials and the worth of their posturings.
