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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:48 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Gel wrote:
Lets see here .... political ..... political, and political. Sooooooooooo .... #1 would mean, I assume, be capable of defending her self against an imperialist invading army.


The critical concerns are internal security and border control. Defense against imaginary boogeymen is not a factor.

<<< What would you call the Iran/Iraq war? >>>

Quote:
#2 The faction in control of the other two must be capable of imposing rules that satisfies the religious and socialogical values of all three factions.


Control by faction is not to be. That is the entire point.

<<< You want them to give up their faith and become born again Christians? They do not get along!! >>>

Quote:
#3 What would be the problem with allowing the people that constructed the infrastructure in the frst place be the people to reconstruct it?
Iraq has engineers and tradesman and with a 70% unemployment rate they have plenty of available labor.


That is precisely what is intended, and what is being accomplished. The Iraqi's are rebuilding their own nation. Indiginous contractors, employing locals, already are performing much of the actual work, and doing so competently and in increasing proportion.

<<< How do you spell 'Haliburton and Bechtel'? >>>


Quote:
And the time allowed should be as long as it takes right?


Of course. And it will work, and it will not take as long as some suppose.

<<<< What do you base that on? >>>>

What many perceive as a strengthening of resistance is in fact the opposite; it is a reaction by the insurgents to an offensive against them by Coalition Forces. The insurgents are being sorely pressed, and are meeting with both military disaster and erosion of local support. This is a new phase in the war, and may be expected to be successful. Most of the intelligence used by Coalition Forces now comes directly from Iraqis themselves. This is a necessary evolution, and will bear ever more fruit.


<<< What do you base that on? >>>
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:49 pm
In honour of Veterans day:
**** the Military! It is the least useful group of individuals gathered anywhere, and folks whoa re career enlisted are often there becasue they are too incompetent to do anything else! What does NCO stand for? No Chance on the Outside!
Mad
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:50 pm
Just love these comparisons!

Wow, America! We're so great! We killed fewer Iraqis during a preemptive strike than Saddam did (if the figures are correct...) Isn't that great? Doesn't that make you feel better? That the Iraqis are "less badly off in that regard presently than they had been prior to the latest intervention"?

Such find words. Or is this sophistry of the kind that keeps corrupt politicians humming and checking their bank accounts?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:52 pm
timber,

Perhaps you didn't catch Asherman saying everyone else is "pampered" and "protected" by the military. Or McG offering to offer thanks to his family for me.

The military has not ever "protected" me. Not once. My family has a long military history as well. I'm not going to declare that others need to thank my family and offer to do it for them.

The notion that everyone enjoys "freedoms" because of the military is a farce. Militaries are just as responsible for denying freedoms as protecting them. The balmy folk on all sides just make the wars more likley to happen.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:54 pm
hobit,

I'm sure most military folk can do just fine on the "outside".
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:56 pm
And a merry **** off to you Hobitbob.

I take it from your wrath against the military that they wouldn't accept you? Was it the fact you couldn't pass the aptitude tests or was it that you couldn't stop jerking off to Jane Fonda?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:56 pm
Agree wholeheartedly with Craven.

Particularly when he's a large yellow cat.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:56 pm
Quote:
Support the Troops
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: November 11, 2003

Columnist Page: Paul Krugman
Forum: Discuss This Column

E-mail: [email protected]

Yesterday's absurd conspiracy theory about the Bush administration has a way of turning into today's conventional wisdom. Remember when people were ridiculed for claiming that Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz, eager to fight a war, were hyping the threat from Iraq?

Anyway, many analysts now acknowledge that the administration never had any intention of pursuing a conventionally responsible fiscal policy. Rather, its tax cuts were always intended as a way of implementing the radical strategy known as "starve the beast," which views budget deficits as a good thing, a way to squeeze government spending. Did I mention that the administration is planning another long-run tax cut next year?

Advocates of the starve-the-beast strategy tend to talk abstractly about "big government." But in fact, squeezing government spending almost always means cutting back or eliminating services people actually want (though not necessarily programs worth their cost). And since it's Veterans Day, let's talk about how the big squeeze on spending may be alienating a surprising group: the nation's soldiers.

One of George W. Bush's major campaign themes in 2000 was his promise to improve the lives of America's soldiers ?- and military votes were crucial to his success. But these days some of the harshest criticisms of the Bush administration come from publications aimed at a military audience.

For example, last week the magazine Army Times ran a story with the headline "An Act of `Betrayal,' " and the subtitle "In the midst of war, key family benefits face cuts." The article went on to assert that there has been "a string of actions by the Bush administration to cut or hold down growth in pay and benefits, including basic pay, combat pay, health-care benefits and the death gratuity paid to survivors of troops who die on active duty."

At one level, this pattern of cuts is standard operating procedure. Just about every apparent promise of financial generosity this administration has made (other than those involving tax cuts for top brackets and corporate contracts) has turned out to be nonoperational. No Child Left Behind got left behind ?- or at least left without funds. AmeriCorps got praised in the State of the Union address, then left high and dry in the budget that followed. New York's firefighters and policemen got a photo-op with the president, but very little money. For that matter, it's clear that New York will never see the full $20 billion it was promised for rebuilding. Why shouldn't soldiers find themselves subject to the same kind of bait and switch?

Yet one might have expected the administration to treat the military differently, if only as a matter of sheer political calculation. After all, the military needs some mollifying: the Iraq war has turned increasingly nightmarish, and deference toward the administration is visibly eroding. Even Pfc. Jessica Lynch has, to her credit, balked at playing her scripted role.

So what's going on? One answer is that once you've instilled a Scrooge mentality throughout the government, it's hard to be selective. But I also suspect that a government of, by and for the economic elite is having trouble overcoming its basic lack of empathy with the working-class men and women who make up our armed forces.

Some say that Representative George Nethercutt's remark that progress in Iraq is a more important story than deaths of American soldiers was redeemed by his postscript, "which, heaven forbid, is awful." Your call. But it's hard to deny the stunning insensitivity of President Bush's remarks back on July 2: "There are some who feel like that, you know, the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is bring 'em on. We got the force necessary to deal with the security situation." Those are the words of a man who can't imagine himself or anyone close to him actually being in the line of fire.

The question is whether the military will start to feel taken for granted. Publications like Army Times are obviously going off the reservation. Retired military officers, like Gen. Anthony Zinni ?- formerly President Bush's envoy to the Middle East ?- have started to offer harsh, indeed unprintable, assessments of administration policies. If this disillusionment spreads to the rank and file, the politics of 2004 may be very different from what anyone expects.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:57 pm
Nice, McG.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 12:58 pm
McGentrix,

Just please note that I do not harbor any ill will toward the military personnel. You mentioned that earlier and I want to make that clear.

My qualm is with the romanicizing and the notion that we are indebted to militaries.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:04 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
McGentrix,

Just please note that I do not harbor any ill will toward the military personnel. You mentioned that earlier and I want to make that clear.

My qualm is with the romanicizing and the notion that we are indebted to militaries.


See, the military saved my life and has protected me and has given me many things in life.

The next time there is a natural disaster in the US, the National Gaurd (military) will be there helping fellow Americans to safety and protecting them. The next time some countries government decides to harbor terrorists they will look and see what our military did to the last government which did so and maybe think it's not such a good idea. I hope that you never have to feel indebted to the military for anything. That means they are doing there jobs.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:09 pm
CdK, I'm not a real big fan of bathos either, and I don't see "A debt owed to the military". I respect your position, and in large part share it. It is certainly, at the very least, far more rational, reasoned, mature, and honorably founded than some of the positions stated here over the last few posts. If any embarrassment is warranted, it falls to those who have, as so often is the wont of such, allowed their emotions, preconceptions, and prejudices to outweigh their responsibilities and overcome their social development.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:09 pm
Quote:
By Amnesty International, Oxfam, and UN estimates, a figure of 1.5 Million Iraqi civilian deaths attributable to Saddam and his Ba'athists over the 30 years of their regime would be a conservative tally. That works out to some 50,000 per year, a somewhat more disturbing count than 15,000 over a 9 month period, or do I have the math wrong?


Timber, are you trying to prove that we are better than Saddam Hussein? Here I've been thinking that we must consider our actions on their own, as good or bad, and not make ourselves look good by comparing us to the most evil thing we can find.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:11 pm
BODY COUNT
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:17 pm
No, Kara, I'm not trying to prove or justify anything. I merely offered a less narrow perspective. What can be proved is that Iraq has long been a disaster. What I believe is being proved is that Iraq is now afforded real opportunity for remedy. Others do not believe that to be the case.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:19 pm
The left's nose must be huge! It seems that it can't see past it.

Kara, Mass graves with 300,000 bodies in it... If it takes the loss of 15,000 to save millions, that is a cost worth paying. Future generations that grow up outside the influence of a Hussein or Baathist regime will certainly agree.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:21 pm
Some of the subsequent posts made me regret very much having brought it up. Especially since this is veteran's day and I was not aware of it.

My qualm is with the marriage of military sacrifice to an ideal.

Each military lauds their "greatness" and calls their dead heros. What I contend is that there is no automatic connection between a military act (and death) to the ideals. I like freedom, but that does not mean I agree that the military has afforded me any freedoms I have.

When terrorists call their dead "martyrs" they help continue the trend and cause more death, when militaries preach that they are honorable and serve an honorable cause and that their dead are all "heroes" they do the same.

What I reject is the notion that militaries serve to protect freedoms and ideals, militaries are rarely so one-minded and their actions rarely so simple.

That being said I can't comprehend the animosity expressed towards those in the military. And I'm damn sorry to have brought it up now.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:22 pm
If you have the colossal hubris to think you are able to make such decisions, McGentrix, then power to you.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:24 pm
As to "Bodycount" as a measure of military accomplishment, I would submit that The US abandoned the practice following Vietnam. The Media, however, appears firmly fixated on the concept, despite the fact contemporary students and practioners of the art of war have repudiated it as meaningless and even contraindicative.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 01:31 pm
CdK wrote:
Some of the subsequent posts made me regret very much having brought it up. Especially since this is veteran's day and I was not aware of it ...
That being said I can't comprehend the animosity expressed towards those in the military. And I'm damn sorry to have brought it up now.


I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'd say some folks have just removed any doubt as to the weight of their credentials and the worth of their posturings.
0 Replies
 
 

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