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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 07:09 am
Crumbles: (Welcome!) Two wrongs don't make a right. Nothing the administration can do now in Iraq will overcome my disgust with them -- they preemptively struck Iraq and they did so on the basis of carefully crafted lies. I just hope Iraq, a country full of decent, intelligent people, will come out of this okay. But it won't be thanks to us.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 07:24 am
Query: Does anyone else think Al Qaeda may not have been responsible for the attack in Riyadh?

When I first heard the news on the radio, it struck me that the form of the attack was somewhat odd. Just read a full account in the NYTimes and thought that the attack has the marks of an action designed by an intelligence agency. Just an impression (obviously!) but curious to know whether anyone else had the same one -- and most of you all watch TV and may have seen much more...
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the prince
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 07:26 am
Tartarin, funny that you mentioned this. This was my first reaction when I heard this news - having heard the "threat" earlier in the day.....
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 07:30 am
Whew, Gautam! Glad to hear I'm not the only one! What did it for me was not just the threat but the snipers in the hills. I'm behind in the news and will be for another day -- we've got a national holiday here today which means no mail, no paper, and I don't have TV...
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 08:13 am
Quote:
08 NOV.-- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC: "It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 08:25 am
hogwash
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 08:31 am
In Britain we have had quite a bit of experience of living with a war of terror. Its propaganda with blood. All sides, once they've crossed the Rubicon that divides political activity from a political activity prosecuted by any means, indulge in it.

Its the dirtiest of wars. All sides rationalise their actions by dismissing innocent victims as casualties of war.

It doesn't matter if its a bomb in a crowded market place, or the targetting killing of a Belfast solicitor, if it serves the wider war aims its justified. We are in a war, and innocent people get killed in wars. The important thing is to win the war, so the killing can stop, even if it means killing people. So goes their grotesque logic. Sad
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Steve 41oo
 
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Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 08:38 am
And its people like Father Dennis who tell the soldier that God is on his side.
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 08:41 am
Well...Bush thinks he was appointed by God, the dimwit chief of Military Intel thinks this is a holy war against Islam, McGEntrix is just being a good little right winger and parroting the latest party line.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 08:45 am
Father Dennis, USMC, is a marine. Like, what else is he gonna say? What he writes is incredibly sentimental bullshit.

Meanwhile, the Constitution, civil rights protesters, and a long history of non-military heroes and un-uniformed citizen soldiers in this country can be credited with our liberties. The military do what they're told, and I don't see them standing stalwartly between John Ashcroft and the people of this country, protecting us. Naw.... they're off being decimated in a trumped up war.

When will we ever learn?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 09:01 am
Oh, Hobitbob, is life so bad for you that you need to degrade yourself so? It's a pity you can't think for yourself and that you feel the need to be the "voice of dissent". I wish I had your omnipotent abilities to know what people think.

This country was founded and protected by military might. Your sensitive, tear-filled lives may not be able to accept that, but it's the truth. You want the US to become some emotional touchy-feely place where everyone can feel good about themselves. I want a country that will gaurantee my children's, children's, children a safe place to live and grow. I don't ever want to see another terrorist attack on US soil. I want to know I am safe from some Islamic fundie who can't see that this is the greatest country in the world.

Too bad all you can do is bitch and moan about it. Maybe if you could see past your anger you would be happy.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 09:06 am
I wouldn't have bothered replying if I had worked out USMC was United States Marine Corps. [Thought it was utterly stupid misguided catholic]
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 09:08 am
They're sometimes interchangeable, Steve.

(LOL!)
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 09:21 am
That sort of attitude McGentrix does not guarantee your children's safety, rather the reverse.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 09:36 am
HeeHee, Steve. I hadn't noticed that either. It sort of vitiates the sentiment, eh?

Some good news today, at least IMO. I really want to believe this story:
Another note of cheer, today: The Supremes have decided to take on the case of the Guantánamo Bay detainees. Perhaps there is hope for this country after all.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 09:44 am
McGentrix says, in part:

Quote:
This country was founded and protected by military might. Your sensitive, tear-filled lives may not be able to accept that, but it's the truth. You want the US to become some emotional touchy-feely place where everyone can feel good about themselves. I want a country that will gaurantee my children's, children's, children a safe place to live and grow. I don't ever want to see another terrorist attack on US soil. I want to know I am safe from some Islamic fundie who can't see that this is the greatest country in the world.


This country was not "founded" by military might. We have had, often, to fight to protect our independence and our way of life. And we have had to help other countries that were under threat of extinction. If you want a country that is completely safe, and if you don't ever want to see another terrorist attack, then you'd better move somewhere off the edge of the world, or find a different president for this country. Our current one fought a war by imputing protection of terrorists to Saddam Hussein. I, for one, do not feel safer. I am in much greater fear, GWB having set the cat amongst the pigeons.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 09:50 am
November 11, 2003 -- THEY looked so old. That was the thing that struck me. Men in their late 30s, they looked at least 10 - sometimes 20 - years older. And they were the survivors.
I was a lieutenant when I reported in to the 1st Battalion of the 46th Infantry. As an enlisted man in the bitter peace of the 1970s, I had already seen the wreckage of Vietnam, the non-commissioned officers so badly shot up that they could no longer serve in the infantry, but had to be posted to easier jobs in support units to "make their 20."

I had seen them limping and scarred, with rebuilt jaws and reconstructed limbs - still serving as best they could, hanging on to their pride as younger men like me, untried by war, left them behind in a short march to the parade ground.

I had seen them, but never quite the way I did as a new officer in an Infantry outfit.

These NCOs had been healed of their wounds sufficiently to return to the work they loved hopelessly and complained about endlessly. Their faces had been burned by the sun in jungle clearings and cut by winter sleet. Awful chow had ruined their guts and - in those days - far too many cigarettes, along with an irrational devotion to doing freedom's toughest job, had ravaged them. They'd spent hard years away from the healing comfort of loved ones. They looked old and worn and battered.

They were proud men. The best of them were master teachers, rigorous but fair with the young soldiers entrusted to their care and determined to make "their" lieutenant the finest in the battalion. They cursed and mocked and worked miracles.

None of us fully appreciated them, of course. We said we did and meant well. But we were officers. We would serve our troop-time, then move on to staff jobs and schools, returning to tactical units now and then to punch our tickets.



We made a great display of waiting until the enlisted men were fed before we ate, of being fitter and fleeter than the NCOs, of leading by example. We shared their hardships, sleeping in the snow or rain, competing to show how tough we were. But as we moved on to further our careers, "old sarge" remained behind, shifting from one Infantry battalion to another, perhaps drawing the odd staff job he hated automatically because a good NCO despised "staff weenies."

We meant to treat them fairly, but the truth is that we didn't. We relied on them, but they could never fully rely on us. We were only passing through. The battalion - some battalion - would always be their home. They welcomed us as tourists.

After Vietnam, those men faced constant complaints from civilians about the generosity of military pensions. Half-pay after only 20 years? It was an outrageous waste, according to those who avoided serving their country. Yet far too many of the NCOs I knew were unlikely to live to collect their Social Security. They did the work the Harvard grads would never have dreamed of doing and gave us the best of their lives. And got half-pay in a broken-health retirement.

Grocery chains campaigned against the military commissaries that allowed soldiers to feed their families more cheaply. The system was "unfair competition," according to the business execs whose families never had to stretch the chili-mac.

Military medicine (much improved now) was a shambles. Military housing (still inadequate) was often so bad that a civilian landlord offering the equivalent would have been sued as a slumlord.

One sergeant first class I remember, a Vietnam vet just short of retirement, died of a heart attack during a physical training run. Friends watched a young NCO drown in a few inches of ditch-water after his tracked vehicle flipped over during training. The vehicle was so heavy that nothing could be done. They watched him struggle to free himself, then go limp. Another NCO died of a broken heart, I think, after his dream of being a first sergeant was unjustly frustrated.

All this was in peacetime. Today, we are at war again. The pay's better, as is the medical care. The commissary system survives, but remains a target of corporate grocers and bureaucrats for whom outsourcing is a secular religion.

And the NCO is still my candidate for the most underpaid professional in any walk of life.

Oh, the enlisted soldier always has politicians ready to pat him - or her - on the back and pose for a photo op. The rhetoric gushed over our troops would make an advertising copywriter blush. As elections loom, no congressman rations the attaboys.

But there's little substance behind the ringing words. The truth is that soldiers have few friends on Capitol Hill. They aren't big campaign contributors or powerful lobbyists. When it comes down to the crunch, the money-men win and the veterans make do.

Elected officials lavish praise on our troops, but lavish money on their revolving-door pals in the defense industry. Indeed, Operation Iraqi Freedom was supposed to prove that the old-fashioned soldier isn't even a major player on today's battlefields, that technology trumps all.

Yet the road to Baghdad was opened by soldiers and Marines fighting in close-quarters combat. And the dangerous work of building peace doesn't lend itself to technological solutions. Conflict is, above all, a human problem - and human problems require human solutions.

The thanks of a grateful nation? A proposal to add a mere 10,000 troops to our overstretched Army died a rapid death. Instead, we're buying nearly useless F-22 fighters at $150 million each. While our soldiers in Iraq don't have enough body armor. There isn't much profit in equipping infantrymen, you see.

Veterans Day, which we hardly honor anymore, began as Armistice Day, memorializing those who fell in the "war to end all wars." But the only thing that always ends is peace. And then we turn, again, to those in uniform.

Think about them today.

Ralph Peters is a retired Army officer
link to story
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 10:04 am
Walk menacingly and carry a big stick.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 10:13 am
Crumbles
Crumbles wrote: "Hmm.... ideologically I'm pretty close to BumbleBee, but I wish she had asked my permission to make the full posting or told me in advance that my answer would be posted.

That analogy was admittedly clumsy.

But then again, so is our entire middle east policy.

Also, that post contained quite a number of sentences that I was quoting - the annotations were lost in translation. A big difference that editing can make.

The post was not intended for public broadcast."


Crumbles, I am hanging my head in shame for stupidly betraying a friend. I should have engaged my brain in thought before my typing fingers sprung into action. I deeply apologize to you for my lack of good sense in not asking for your permission to post your response. I also regret my editing of your comments to separate them from Bill's wasn't more clear. My only excuse is that I thought your response was so right on target in response to my query that others would be interested in your viewpoint. I am so sorry, will you ever forgive me?

BumbleBeeBoogie Embarrassed
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2003 10:26 am
Kara -- Just to make sure there's no mistake. That David Brooks piece wasn't a "story" or "news," it was an opinion piece. You undoubtedly knew that, but others might take "story" or "news" for a report, subject to different standards.
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