The UN, US and Iraq IV

Marie Antoinette is so apt that it really ought to be passed on to a cartoonist...

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here is one thing i've been wondering about : what can the u.s. (and its allies and the u.n.) do to resolve the dilemma in iraq ? it seems to me that it's too late to just walk out and say "oh, sorry, it was all a mistake". perhaps i haven't looked enough, but ihaven't found any plans by the u.n. or other countries to end this nighmare. it seems to me that any plan must be designed to control the situation and prevent further damage. if i can compare it to a bad investment in the stockmarket, the scenario is somewhat like this : i have invested a good chunk of my retirement money in an investment that is quickly loosing its value. what to do : bail out completely, make a partial withdrawal and park some money in a safe haven or just hang in 'till the bitter end(and hope against hope that a white knight will come to the rescue)? anyone have a solution/comments? hbg

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hbg, In the market place, we can sell and not get involved again. That's an impossible scenario for our situation in Iraq. If the terrorists are successful in chasing out the US, they will eventially spread their terrorism elsewhere knowing that the US doesn't have the stomach to fight the war to its conclusion - or it's bitter end. The major fault of this administration is their inability to listen to the experts "BEFORE" we started the war in Iraq. Then, not listening to the experts "AFTER" the major combat over. General Shinseki told this administration it will take 200,000 troops to control Iraq, but he was instead reprimanded, and essentially ended his career as general of the army. They didn't know how to listen to the experts before the war, and not now. That's the reason why so many of our soldiers are losing their lives, and we're footing most of the cost.

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Re: Rationalizing

pistoff wrote:

How does one live with blood on one's hands? I am glad that I don't have that problem at this time.

It's far more evil to have one's semen on a blue dress than it is to have blood on one's hands.

When are you going to learn this, pist?

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CI -- (and I paid the penalty last night...) I share the bad habit of not reading manuals before putting something together, so I know where these guys are coming from. You start out looking at the object that "need some assembly," figure you can see the path to take, and off you go. Three hours later, a torn nail and everyone in the household staying away from you and your high-pitched swearing, you decided to leave it till the next morning, when you'll finally read the manual. Fortunately no lives were lost last night in this household. But if I paid someone to put the thing together and he did it that way, I wouldn't hire him again. I won't hire Rumsfeld again, not if I can help it.

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http://www.allhatnocattle.net/bushhelmethead.jpg

Does this helmet make my head look too fat?

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"How does one live with blood on one's hands? I am glad that I don't have that problem at this time."

Pistoff (and Diddie) -- The Right spends an inordinate amount of time and effort trying to sell the idea that the Left "hates Bush" -- as though this were a pettish little problem on our part. I contest the word hate, but I think hate is justifed if indeed it's true. Because in a democracy we share the responsibility for what our leadership does, like it or not. That means we have blood on OUR hands, thanks to the monstrous people in the administration. And that's one of the reasons why I'd prefer "outrage" to "hate" when describing Bush. Any American who is not outraged at sharing responsibility for the bloodshed caused by this administration has a serious problem.

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a-men.

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19 more of our military killed, and two US civilians. The numbers are increasing fast. How many will be enough for the supporters of GWBush?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

19 more of our military killed, and two US civilians. The numbers are increasing fast. How many will be enough for the supporters of GWBush?

It took over 50,000 in Nam plus a few more in places like Kent State before they decided killing for ideology was a bad idea ...... oil? Bush? who knows ....

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Gels, Just goes to prove history repeats itself.

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timberlandko wrote:

What has been done is that for the Iraqis water supply and sewage treatment, electricity, medical care, education, and personal freedoms have been improved over pre-war levels.

I stumbled over this one just like PDiddie did.

And he's right: as long as you assert things like the above as if they are fact, but without backing it up with anything more than the declarative tone of a self-proclaimed authority, you are going to be called nicer euphemisms of "liar".

Medical care and education better than before the war? Just one random refutation (and I saw several these past two weeks):

Quote:

Sometimes even the "good news" in Iraq is less than meets the eye. Some American officials have criticized what they call "poor" news coverage of the U.S. rehabilitation of 1,000 Iraqi schools. [..] In fact, [..] as the AP points out, the schools needed the rehabilitation primarily because they'd been damaged during the looting following the U.S. military's entry into Baghdad in April. Moreover, many schools in the south haven't been renovated, according to reporters who've visited them.

Many other so-called success stories look less impressive when held under scrutiny. Hospitals have been reopened, but, according to Iraqi doctors, the distribution of medicine is worse than it was before the war.

(from TNR)

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c.i. : i know there are no easy solutions; but if nothing changes, what is the outcome going to be ? tonight watched the report from afghanistan on CNN. the u.s./u.n. forces don't have much control beyond kabul and therefore cannot provide protection for the civilians in the other parts of the country. the afghani president and the finance-minister stated that they need 15-20 billion dollars to cover the immediate needs of the country. they stated they had been given one billion dollars; simply not enough to even try to start rebuilding the country. but where is the money going to come from? i believe "donor fatigue" has already set in. not a good scenario ! (murphy was an optimist). hbg

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nimh, the The Coalition Provisional Authority's spending for civilian healthcare is 3500% of that provided by Saddam. Iraqi Kilowatt/Hour electrical production surpassed pre-war levels in late September. Both fresh water availability and sewage treatment, along with garbage disposal, are superior to pre-war conditions, whether considering the '91 war or the '03 version. The withdrawal of The UN and of The Red Cross have, however, negatively impacted humanitarian aid, particularly as regards schools and hospitals. The CPA is working to pick up the slack.
Nobody says its all better now. It is getting better, and at a remarkable pace, comparing reconstruction to Post WWII efforts, for example. This no doubt upsets some folks almost as much as the major combat segment having been impeded more by the physical constraints of keeping the surging forces supplied over the course of their unprecedentedly swift advance than by any armed opposition.

Sure, hostile extranationals are showing increased presence. Cool ... We've taken the fight to The Bad Guy, and he's accepted combat. This time, instead of his terms on our ground, we're fighting him on our terms on ground we've taken from him. The momentum is clear. There has not been an insurgent action of any militarily significant success, while inurgents are being eliminated hour-by-hour. The "setbacks" are media events, the successes are Iraqis earning wages, participating in debates and dissent, and working to rebuild their own country.

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You use "bad guy" with a loss less hesitation than I would. Associate them more easily as well.

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Prolly so, CdK ... I equate "Bad Guy" with folks committed to violent oppression. I may have a different concept of oppression than do you. Still, in this instance, I see The Bad Guys as the armed Islamofacists and their travelling companions, the displaced Ba'athist thugs and assorted opportunistic brigands of indeterminate ideology more or less in the fight for personal gain. In the Islamofacist camp, I include the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and all the rest of that lot.

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And many of us see the "bad guys" as the imperialists who insist on initiating an American military hegemony. Its all a matter of perspective. You guys on the far right are really miffed the cold war ended, arent you? Shocked

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Not miffed a bit, hbob. Lets us devote our attention more fully to other things. You lefties seem pretty miffed that its working.

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"Violent oppression" is another one you use with less consideration as well then. My point was not communicated, I guess.

Anywho, I'd love to know how you've put such a exact finger on the demographic makeup of the attackers and more importantly their very mindset and motive.

Those lacking such data are natually less certain of labels such as "bad".

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timberlandko wrote:

Sure, hostile extranationals are showing increased presence. Cool ... We've taken the fight to The Bad Guy, and he's accepted combat. This time, instead of his terms on our ground, we're fighting him on our terms on ground we've taken from him. The momentum is clear. There has not been an insurgent action of any militarily significant success, while inurgents are being eliminated hour-by-hour. The "setbacks" are media events, the successes are Iraqis earning wages, participating in debates and dissent, and working to rebuild their own country..

Iraqi child crushed by US tank

By Nurah Tape

Monday 03 November 2003, 7:24 Makka Time, 4:24 GMT

A six-year-old Iraqi child has been crushed to death by an American tank.

The incident was said to be reminiscent of scenes caused by the Israeli occupation of Palestine as the child was killed underneath the tank's tracks

Timber, yeah .... I see what you mean ....

Source

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The UN, US and Iraq IV

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