0
   

The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 10:58 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Alarmed by the prospect of Iranian victory [after 1980], The US, The Soviet Union, and France alike all stepped up support for Saddam in the interest of quelling Iranian Fundamentalism. The US provided primarilly anti-Iranian intelligence, while The Soviet Union and France both provided direct military and financial aid.


This suggested opposition (between the US giving intelligence and France and the Soviets giving the actual financial and military aid) is demonstrably untrue.

The US, too, provided direct financial and military aid to Saddam's regime in the eighties. It lent Saddam many millions of dollars, exported heavy trucks for military use and decided in favour of selling dual-use equipment for Iraq's nuclear program. (See below).

In fact, direct financial US support to Saddam continued long after the "alarming prospect of Iranian victory" had faded. You omit to mention, for example, that the US extended a billion dollar loan to Saddam after it had become known that he used chemical weapons against the Kurds in 1988.

You also omit to mention that even when US support to Saddam was first seriously "stepped up", back in 83/84, he was already using chemical weapons (or WMD, as we now would say) - as the American government had acknowledged.

The suggested opposition between the phase when the US supported him against Iran to stop Khomeiny and the phase when Saddam "massively deployed chemical weaponry", "turned his attention to his own Kurds" and had the "capacity for sophisticated weapons production" is thus demonstrably untrue, too.

Lemme quote myself (quoting the GWU):

Quote:
A. In November 1983, a government memo "indicated that Iraq used chemical weapons against [..] 'Kurdish insurgents'" as well as Iranian forces. [..] In March 1984, "The United States has concluded that the available evidence substantiates Iran's charges that Iraq used chemical weapons".

B. Later in the month, "when asked whether the U.S.'s conclusion that Iraq had used chemical weapons would have 'any effect on U.S. recent initiatives to expand commercial relationships with Iraq [and] open diplomatic relations,' the State Department's spokesperson said 'No. I'm not aware of any change in our position. We're interested in being involved in a closer dialogue with Iraq'."

The same month, the State Department informs a House Committee on Foreign Affairs staff member that the department has not objected to the sale of 2,000 heavy trucks to Iraq, even though the official US policy is not to export military related items to Iraq or Iran; and, when asked if the trucks were intended for military purposes, responds, "we presumed that this was Iraq's intention, and had not asked."

That spring, the U.S. reconsidered policy for the sale of dual-use equipment to Iraq's nuclear program, and its "preliminary results favor[ed] expanding such trade to include Iraqi nuclear entities".

A. A State Department background paper dated November 16, 1984 said that Iraq had [..] resumed the use [of chemical weapons] in February 1984.

B. On November 26, 1984, Iraq and the U.S. restored diplomatic relations. Tariq Aziz, in Washington for the formal resumption of ties, said that his country was satisfied that "the U.S. analysis of the war's threat to regional stability is 'in agreement in principle' with Iraq's".

Derived from: George Washington University - National Security Archive
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 11:01 pm
timberlandko wrote:
In '88, Saddam massively deployed chemical weaponry against Iranian troops occupying Iraqi territory, [..] He [then] turned his attention to his own Kurds, who had, historically to their detriment been pro-Iranian. Emboldened by lack of strong international response to his internal depredations, he focused on Kuwait. [..]


What you omit to say here is that the US government was one of the main parties in this "lack of strong international response". It didn't join countries like Canada when they strove for a specific, official UN condemnation. And President Bush Sr. himself actually vetoed a Congress resolution to condemn Saddam over his use of chemical weapons against the Kurds:

"In America, a resolution urging sanctions against Iraq was tabled by [Democratic] Senator Claiborne D. Pell and passed by both Houses of Congress. It was vetoed by President Bush. The White House even granted Baghdad a further loan of a billion dollars." link
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 12:07 am
I don't dispute there were illegal transfers of technology. The US also provided loan guarantees and direct credits, and certainly did find it convenient to overlook clear and evident WMD and Humanitarian violations. In dollar terms, the US contribution to Saddam's regime was dwarfed by those of others, notably but not exclusively including European or Soviet participation. None of that has a damned thing to do with the fact Saddam had been intolerable far more than long enough. The Current Administration screwed up right in line with its predecessors, though the screwup was in not clearly demonstrating to the world community the need for Saddam's ouster. The result has pretty much doing all the things for the wrong reasons. That does not perforce make what was done wrong. Bad things can come from good intentions as easily as good things may come of poor intention.
Because an ill has long existed, with or without one's own assent to or cooperation in that ill has no bearing on one's responsibility to address that ill with intent of remedy. One is to be expected to facillitate the cleaning up of one's own messes.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 12:47 am
Boy, timber, that's a mouthful: "The result has pretty much doing all the things for the wrong reasons. That does not perforce make what was done wrong. Bad things can come from good intentions as easily as good things may come of poor intention." Our soldiers are being killed almost daily, and we're spending billions of tax money that should be helping our own citizens. But, ofcoarse, this president knows better, and he's not made any mistakes, and the future will prove your statement - which says absolutely nothing.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 12:58 am
Timber, We sold Iraq the gas, the aircraft, we even trained the pilots ..... does it sound like we gave a crap what Saddam was about to do? Can anyone be that naiveSaddam wasa getting his royal ass kicked by wave upon wave of Irainians .... we saved his royal patootie by providing him with WoMD, then years later prosecuted him for being in possesion of those very same weapons that we provided. You say we did nothing to further his bad intentions? All I can say is 'sheesh'!


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq15.pdf
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 01:17 am
Gel wrote:
Timber ... You say we did nothing to further his bad intentions ...

No I did not say that. I said we were neither alone nor chief in the matter of enabling Saddam, which in no way diminishes the necessity of addressing most condignly him and his ilk.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 08:22 am
timberlandko wrote:
Gel wrote:
Timber ... You say we did nothing to further his bad intentions ...

No I did not say that. I said we were neither alone nor chief in the matter of enabling Saddam, which in no way diminishes the necessity of addressing most condignly him and his ilk.


Isn't that like being a little bit pregnant? Evil or Very Mad


13 dead as Chinook chopper shot down
At least 20 more injured


Associated Press

Sunday, November 02, 2003
ADVERTISEMENT

FALLUJAH, Iraq -- It's the deadliest day for Americans in Iraq since President Bush declared an end to major hostilities in May.

Major hostilities are reported today.

At least 13 American soldiers were killed and more than 20 injured this morning when their Chinook helicopter was shot down near Fallujah, 60 km west of Baghdad.

Witnesses say it crashed in a cornfield after being hit by a missile.

The U.S. military says the wounded have been transferred to medical facilities and authorities are searching for more survivors.

The helicopter was believed to be carrying dozens of soldiers to their leaves abroad.

There are also reports of as many as nine Americans being killed in three other incidents around Iraq.

But only one of those deaths has been confirmed by military sources.
© Copyright 2003 Associated Press
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 08:42 am
Quote:
By early 2003, studies revealed that fear of the United States had reached remarkable heights throughout the world, along with distrust of the political leadership. Dismissal of elementary human rights and needs was matched by a display of contempt for democracy for which no parallel comes easily to mind, accompanied by professions of sincere dedication to human rights and democracy. The unfolding events should be deeply disturbing to those who have concerns about the world they are leaving to their grandchildren.




http://www.counterpunch.org/chomsky11012003.html
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 08:45 am
Latest polls show ... well, someone else will certainly point out the successful policy of the Bush administration later:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/graphics/bushApproval.gif
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 09:43 am
Exactly, Walter. A little aggression now and again does a (presidential) body good!

In the lower pie charts, notice that the vaguer the goal (campaign against terrorism, "foreign affairs" vs. budget deficit), the greater the approval rating. Democrats need to hammer at the specifics of "campaign against terrorism" and "situation in Iraq" to remind people what a disaster those initiatives have been, too.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 10:04 am
David Rieff, in the NYTimes magazine, reviews intentions and serious missteps in the administration's "plan" for Iraq. Substitute "wishful thinking" for "plan."

Quote:
Blueprint for a Mess
By DAVID RIEFF

On the streets of Baghdad today, Americans do not feel welcome. United States military personnel in the city are hunkered down behind acres of fencing and razor wire inside what was once Saddam Hussein's Republican Palace. When L. Paul Bremer III, head of the Coalition Provisional Authority, leaves the compound, he is always surrounded by bodyguards, carbines at the ready, and G.I.'s on patrol in the city's streets never let their hands stray far from the triggers of their machine guns or M-16 rifles. The official line from the White House and the Pentagon is that things in Baghdad and throughout Iraq are improving. But an average of 35 attacks are mounted each day on American forces inside Iraq by armed resisters of one kind or another, whom American commanders concede are operating with greater and greater sophistication. In the back streets of Sadr City, the impoverished Baghdad suburb where almost two million Shiites live -- and where Bush administration officials and Iraqi exiles once imagined American troops would be welcomed with sweets and flowers -- the mood, when I visited in September, was angry and resentful. In October, the 24-member American-appointed Iraqi Governing Council warned of a deteriorating security situation.
Historically, it is rare that a warm welcome is extended to an occupying military force for very long, unless, that is, the postwar goes very smoothly. And in Iraq, the postwar occupation has not gone smoothly.

I have made two trips to Iraq since the end of the war and interviewed dozens of sources in Iraq and in the United States who were involved in the planning and execution of the war and its aftermath. It is becoming painfully clear that the American plan (if it can even be dignified with the name) for dealing with postwar Iraq was flawed in its conception and ineptly carried out. At the very least, the bulk of the evidence suggests that what was probably bound to be a difficult aftermath to the war was made far more difficult by blinkered vision and overoptimistic assumptions on the part of the war's greatest partisans within the Bush administration. The lack of security and order on the ground in Iraq today is in large measure a result of decisions made and not made in Washington before the war started, and of the specific approaches toward coping with postwar Iraq undertaken by American civilian officials and military commanders in the immediate aftermath of the war....

...Call it liberation or occupation, a dominating American presence in Iraq was probably destined to be more difficult, and more costly in money and in blood, than administration officials claimed in the months leading up to the war. But it need not have been this difficult. Had the military been as meticulous in planning its strategy and tactics for the postwar as it was in planning its actions on the battlefield, the looting of Baghdad, with all its disastrous material and institutional and psychological consequences, might have been stopped before it got out of control. Had the collective knowledge embedded in the Future of Iraq Project been seized upon, rather than repudiated by, the Pentagon after it gained effective control of the war and postwar planning a few months before the war began, a genuine collaboration between the American authorities and Iraqis, both within the country and from the exiles, might have evolved. And had the lessons of nation-building -- its practice but also its inevitability in the wars of the 21st century -- been embraced by the Bush administration rather than dismissed out of hand, then the opportunities that did exist in postwar Iraq would not have been squandered as, in fact, they were.

The real lesson of the postwar mess is that while occupying and reconstructing Iraq was bound to be difficult, the fact that it may be turning into a quagmire is not a result of fate, but rather (as quagmires usually are) a result of poor planning and wishful thinking. Both have been in evidence to a troubling degree in American policy almost from the moment the decision was made to overthrow Saddam Hussein's bestial dictatorship.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/02/magazine/02IRAQ.html?pagewanted=print&position=


Read the whole piece. It's too long to paste in here and is well worth the effort.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 11:01 am
timber said
Quote:
The US also provided loan guarantees and direct credits, and certainly did find it convenient to overlook clear and evident WMD and Humanitarian violations
This convenient over-looking of human rights violations (along with financial and technical/military aid to very ugly regimes) is not at all unique to the case of Iraq - it's the way the US commonly does business in the world. It would be entirely prudent to drop the blinders on this one, if one wants fewer active enemies, that is.

Timber is right to suggest this administration is not qualitatively different from preceding administrations since ww 2 as regards 'business first, citizens last'. There are systemic elements which drive this, which are perhaps now so deeply entwined in the economic and political machinery (and national mythology) that they are realistically no longer available for correction. I'd like to wish everyone good luck.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 11:21 am
Here's an interesting read.
**********************
Here's an article a friend sent to me today that fits into this topic.

Pros at the Con

November 2, 2003
By MAUREEN DOWD

WASHINGTON

I gave a Valentine's Day party in 1981 and Janet Cooke came.

On a dance floor filled with red and white balloons, I introduced myself and complimented her on her amazing story about Jimmy, an 8-year-old heroin addict in the D.C. projects.

Flashing her dazzling smile, the pretty 26-year-old
Washington Post reporter thanked me and shimmied away. That spring, she won a Pulitzer. Two days later, Ben Bradlee had to return it - a moment, he told me recently, that was the most painful of his career.

Jimmy didn't exist and Janet was a grifter, a woman who pretended to be a Sorbonne graduate and a tennis ace.

Fifteen years later, my friend Michael Kelly, then the editor of The New Republic, told me about a very angry letter he had fired off to someone who had criticized one of his young writers, Stephen Glass. I was worried that Mike's language in the letter had been too belligerent, even as I admired his Gael force loyalty.

After Mike left the magazine in 1997 - a departure sparked by fights with the owner, Marty Peretz - his successor, Chuck Lane, discovered that Glass had fabricated many of his quirky stories.

The new movie "Shattered Glass" recounts the absorbing tale of how a pathological and smarmy young man fooled the brainy journalists at the publication referred to in the film as "the in-flight magazine of Air Force One." (Though Ryan Lizza, a political reporter for The New Republic, jokes that with the current administration, Sports
Illustrated is the in-flight magazine of Air Force One.)

"The reason that con artists get away with elaborate deception is that most people refuse to live in a world in which cynicism is the rule," says Leon Wieseltier, the magazine's literary editor, who never suspected Glass. "We're mentally prepared for honest mistakes. And everybody lies. But most people lie because they're afraid, not because they get pleasure out of deceiving or because they have contempt for people and standards of probity."

It's hard to protect yourself from the big lie.

The seriously creepy Jayson Blair is riding his con to fame and bucks. He has now replaced Elizabeth Smart as the carnival "get" who shouldn't be got. Katie Couric is planning an NBC special and a "Today" show interview with the New York
Times fabulist to help him peddle his book, which has the most risibly tacky title in publishing history - "Burning Down My Master's House."

I have now watched two "Law and Order" episodes based on Blair. Murders were thrown in, because an information scam is not good enough for Dick Wolf's franchise.

An information scam is good enough for George Bush's franchise, though. It's clearly easier and safer - especially in the era of instant, interlocking data and technology - to go with the truth than a ruse, but the Bush team went with a ruse to get us into what Rummy belatedly calls "the long, hard slog" of Iraq.

Now we're in the postwar war, and President Bush is still manipulating reality. He wants to obscure the intensity and nature of the opposition, choosing to lump anyone who resists the American occupation in the category of terrorist.

He has also tried to play down the fatalities and the large number of wounded. He has not been attending memorial services or funerals of the soldiers killed in Iraq, according to The Washington Post. And the Pentagon reinforced a ban on news coverage and photography of dead soldiers' homecomings at Dover.

This sort of airbrushing is tasteless, because it
diminishes our war heroes instead of honoring them. And pointless, since news outlets are running the names of the dead every day and starting to focus more on the heart-rending stories of the maimed.

Political calculations have now trumped the proclamations of virtue and symbolism that this White House would normally embrace.

It's bad enough to try to hide critical information when you can get away with it. It's really insulting to try to hide it when you can't get away with it.

Those who go for the big con, who audaciously paint false pictures, think everyone else is stupid. They want to promote themselves based on the gullibility of others.

For Cooke, Glass and Blair, their editors were the marks. But at least that unholy trio only soiled newsprint. For the Bush crowd, the American people were the marks.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/02/opinion/02DOWD.html ex=1068776426&ei=1&en=715569af2857e498
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 11:35 am
Walter, What I found most interesting was the shape of the graph; it looks like a christmas tree. I guess by the end of December, the approval and disapproval ratings will meet to make a perfect picture of things to come in 2004.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 12:24 pm
Tartarin

At the end of each days' PBS Newshour, silent time is set aside for photographs of each American soldier who has died in Iraq (upon official announcement of the death). This is done with the deepest respect and dignity. You see these too young faces, and you want to just cry. But I'll wager that the administration is altogether unhappy with the PR consequences of such honoring.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 12:43 pm
I can imagine, Blatham. The same reaction is brought just by reading the names and home states of these kids in the NYTimes. The thoughtless waste is simply unforgiveable and, if we have any soul left at all, will NOT be forgiven.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 12:47 pm
i hope some of you watched the interview of secretary rumsfeld by tim russert on NBC this sunday morning. as the u.s. secretary of defence he answered a lot of questins about the iraq situation with ; "i don't know" or some version thereof. now either he really doesn't know or he doesn't want to tell - in which case case he would be better of to refuse to answer. by repeating "i don't know" he gave a very bad impresion of the state of information that the u.s. administration has. hbg ... THANKS for your advice re. removing an entry !
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 12:49 pm
Rumsfeld had his oatmeal this morning 'cause I haven't heard so many mealy mouthed responses since Nixon proclaiming that "I am not a crook."
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 12:50 pm
(Or Reagan's, "I can't recall.")
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 12:57 pm
We are beginning the notice a big change in the confidence level of this administration. At the beginning and during the "war," they spoke with their chest out. Now, nobody can stomach their rhetoric. Their confidence has disappeared.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 07/26/2025 at 03:55:25