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Should slave owners be removed from the dollar bill?

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2008 08:28 am
I might add, that in no way should the above be considered a defense of slavery that occurred any time after a particular culture's adoption of the horse collar....
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2008 08:33 am
jasonrest wrote:
fishin wrote:
"owners"?? There is only one persons image on the dollar bill. Wink


I never specified the "one" dollar bill.


I think that "from the dollar bill" is pretty specific.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2008 08:42 am
Bella Dea wrote:
jasonrest wrote:
fishin wrote:
"owners"?? There is only one persons image on the dollar bill. Wink


I never specified the "one" dollar bill.


I think that "from the dollar bill" is pretty specific.

Bella... we're a whole twelve pages past that.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2008 05:59 pm
snood wrote:
I got it! Now, if I may ask, how do you think it is you yourself came to the belief that slavery is wrong?


Now you are being obtuse, and you have, once again, failed to pay attention.

I will repeat Lincoln's remark, which i already quoted: "As i would not be a slave, so i would not be a master." I consider that all "morality" (a term which is offensive to me, because of the baggage the term carts around with itself, such as a specious belief that it refers to absolute, universal truths) derives at the core from granting to others that freedom which one would enjoy oneself. From that perspective, the question of slavery is immediately settled, without reference to abstruse reasoning. Which is, of course, a subjective judgment.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2008 07:44 pm
Of course.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2008 07:55 am
DrewDad wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
jasonrest wrote:
fishin wrote:
"owners"?? There is only one persons image on the dollar bill. Wink


I never specified the "one" dollar bill.


I think that "from the dollar bill" is pretty specific.

Bella... we're a whole twelve pages past that.


Don't be a hater....I was gone and just am catching up. Crying or Very sad
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jasonrest
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 06:53 am
Bella Dea wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
jasonrest wrote:
fishin wrote:
"owners"?? There is only one persons image on the dollar bill. Wink


I never specified the "one" dollar bill.


I think that "from the dollar bill" is pretty specific.

Bella... we're a whole twelve pages past that.


Don't be a hater....I was gone and just am catching up. Crying or Very sad


Did you also catch up on the part where I apologized for the error?
Of course not!
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jasonrest
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 07:08 am
I apologize for a seemingly convenient vacation.

Semantics.
My interpretation of a crime in respect to this conversation depends not upon official documents but upon a moral law, an unwritten law and of course, those that disagree, feel otherwise. Admittedly, with a strict and correct interpretation of the word, these men were not criminals because they had done nothing that was officially labeled illegal.

Those with the opposing view have already stated that slavery was of course wrong, and those that participated, whether in Africa, America, or wherever were wrong. I imagine the new question is... does all the good they've done outweigh the bad?
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 07:46 am
Imposing our moral valuations on our ancestors is dicey, the further away they are from us the less right we have to do this. We are supposed to take people who lived 200 years ago and slip them into our ideas of right and wrong??!! Who came up that this nutty idea? This needs the documentation for why it is justified before it can be taken seriously. On the face of it it is like I said.....nuts.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 09:21 am
jasonrest wrote:
I imagine the new question is... does all the good they've done outweigh the bad?


In the case of Washington, i would say that the good he did his nation certainly outweighs his status as a slave owner, and his personal flaws, such as, for example, his obsession with assuring that his employees, white or black, slave or free, worked hard, and worked "from sun to sun."

Apart from having inherited slaves and a system he was powerless to alter, and apart from small flaws such as a bad temper with those he considered lazy or malingering, Washington was refreshingly free of noticeable character flaws. He was a man obsessed with probity, as well, which lead him into dilemmas such as recognizing the evils of slavery, and yet feeling obliged to observe the spirit of the last testament of Daniel Parke Custis, and therefore preserving the property of his wife, Martha Dandridge Custis Washington, and in turn preserving that property for sake of her children, and their children, as was enjoined in that testament.

On the larger, national stage, he was, as Thomas Flexner has described him, "the indispensable man." (I recommend the one volume abridged version of Flexner's biography of Washington, originally published in four volumes.) Washington was also, as far as i know (and that's pretty far), unique in history. When at Washington's funeral, Henry Lee described him as "First in war, first in peace, and first in the hearts of his countrymen," he was not indulging hyperbole, nor was it mere panegyric. Washington had, by the mid-years of the Revolution, secured the complete confidence and faith of the people, including of the men of the Continental line, and almost all of their officers (save those of high rank, whose ambitions were frustrated by Washington's presence). The unique act which Washington committed was when, shortly before Christmas, 1783, he rode into Annapolis, Maryland, where the Continental Congress was then meeting, and surrendered his commission to them, before riding home as a private citizen, and for official purposes, no more than a private citizen. I know of no other military leader who, victorious at the head of his army, with the complete confidence of his army, and of the people of the nation, surrendered all of his power to a civil authority to retire to private life. (The closest one might come to this would have been Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, and as he lived in the legendary period of Roman history--although he certainly was a real man and not a character--and as the circumstances were substantially different, i continue to consider Washington unique for that reason.)

Washington's contribution to the nation extends far beyond this, however. He was a crucial factor in the nature of the powers of the executive as it was created at the constitutional convention, because each day the delegates saw him presiding at the front of the room, and as there was no doubt that Washington would be the choice of the people as the first executive magistrate, he was always in their minds when they created the office of President. It can reasonably be argued that Washington's character is responsible for the broad and significant powers which were granted to the Executive either directly or by inference in our constitution, because he was the ultimate trustworthy and capable man of his times. I don't think the formula has failed us, either, for as much as partisan sentiments have lead people to complain of the "imperial" powers exercised by this or that President.

Finally, Washington was extremely conscious of the precedents he would set as the nation's first President. For example, while the capital was still at New York, he decided to attend a session of the Congress (still small enough that both the House and the Senate could occupy the same hall), but was so disgusted by the behavior of the gallery (he hated being stared at, and considered it grossly rude to speak of someone in their presence while staring at them), and was disgusted by how the Congressmen on the floor had so obviously begun to "play" to audience after he entered. He never repeated the experiment, unless invited to attend upon the Congress by both houses (the "state of the union" report which the President makes is mandated by the constitution). Since that time, although the constitution is mute on the subject, the President never attends a session of the Congress unless invited to do so by the two houses, and usually only does so for the state of the union address.

This is a small matter, and Washington was careful of other matters of precedent. Even though he was almost embarrassingly eager to fill the office of Lieutenant General after he had left the office of President, while in office, and although the constitutionally mandated Commander in Chief, he was careful never to appear in public in uniform, nor to appear at any time "at the head of the troops" in the character of an officer. He felt it important that the military and the civil authority be clearly separated, and that the neither the military dictate to the government, nor the government to take on a military character.

Probably the greatest and most effective precedent which he set was in retiring after two terms. He did not wish to die in office, and to seem to ratify the succession of the Vice President by that means, so as to avoid the notion that the office of President was hereditary, and that the President would informally choose his own successor. Although John Adams did succeed him, he only lasted one term, and until Theodore Roosevelt ran (unsuccessfully) for President in 1912, no other President or former President attempted to serve more than two terms. It was not until Franklin Roosevelt was elected for the third time in 1940, that the precedent was broken. Shortly thereafter, in 1951, the XXIInd Amendment was ratitified, setting a term limit to the Presidency, and making the precedent of Washington a part of constitutional law.

I'll come back later to look at Jefferson (ugh) and Jackson--the Girl is anxious to use the computer.
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Mexica
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:41 pm
The issue is should past slave-owning presidents be removed from the face of American currency.
-jasonrest

At first read, I was inclined to react in similar fashion as some of the able2know regulars. That is to say, I initially thought it was silly question that would provoke an obvious "no." However, after thinking about all I have read on this thread and thinking it over, I no longer see it [for reasons I wouldn't want to bore you with] as a silly question and I do not see a "no" answer as quite so obvious. So, let's suppose all the debate and work was done, and this question made it to a public vote: would I vote "yes" or "no"? I'm inclined to think I'd vote "yes."

Anyone that considers forced slavery a crime, (which I think most do) without anything further, assigns that label to these men without my help.
-jasonrest

This too was interesting. Was slavery a crime? I'm inclined to side with your verbose e-adversary. I mean, slavery wasn't a crime in Washington's time, so he could hardly be said to have violated any law of his time. Not to "transmogriphy" this discussion any further, but I wonder how many would agree that Hitler, like past so-called American slave owners, was not a criminal?
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:48 pm
Setanta wrote:
......................................

I'll come back later to look at Jefferson (ugh) and Jackson--the Girl is anxious to use the computer.


Thanks for the erudite portrait of Washington, but, since you mentioned a "Girl" (a lady whom I had the honor of meeting, btw), I've been wondering when - and IF - Messrs Jason and Snood will pause to remember that women got the vote 60 years AFTER black men did.

Even for someone with little arithmetical ability the calculation is a simple one: Nobody alive today in the US either was enslaved or even got to ever meet someone who was - the human lifespan being what it is - but tens of millions of women either remember days when they weren't allowed to vote or at least met other women who can remember such a time.

If either Jason or Snood can explain this strange lapse in their alleged fight against past civil rights inequities I'll be glad to hear their explanation; until then their entire argument seems motivated less by a concern to right past wrongs than with peddling some nonexistent victimhood in view of blackmailing others into reparations of some sort.

Crass ignorance is another possibility, of course.
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Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:55 pm
Let's see now how the logic of this works out.

We agree that our founding fathers were all (or nearly all) slave-owners. Does that make them any less the founding fathers of our country? Should they now be "punished" after the fact? Take the Washington monument and rededicate all the buildings in Wash DC. Take Georgey and all the Dead Prez off the currency.

We all recognize the heinous history of slavery of our forefathers. Isn't it enough to make sure that children (and adults) of our country be educated about the racial inequalities of the past and present?

Quite silly to suggest removing them from our currency, IMHO. Energy and finances are better spent with thorough education.
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Mexica
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:07 pm
Exactly, how can the dead be punished?
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Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:09 pm
By kicking over their gravestones?
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Mexica
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:12 pm
lol

But what of the dead that were cremated?

----
This thread has an obvious undercurrent of "what more do you blacks want?!"
Amusing.
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Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:14 pm
Do I hear the din of the reparations conversation looming?
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Mexica
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:15 pm
I hope not.
I'd hate for this discussion to transmogriphy any more. Razz
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:22 pm
Ragman wrote:
Do I hear the din of the reparations conversation looming?


What other construction can you place on the posts of the self-proclaimed victims here? Other than ignorance, as previously noted - exemplified by miraculous transmogrification <G>
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:30 pm
In the alternative, why not go for equal time on all currency by honoring the slaves and natives?
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