1
   

The Republican nominee will be...

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 09:30 am
Advocate wrote:
McCain is always bringing up his former POW status. Now he says that he is more of a leader than Romney. What the hell did McCain ever lead?


He was also the SRO (thats Senior Ranking Officer) at the Hanoi Hilton when he was a prisoner.
He was the highest ranking officer held at the prison for quite a while.
He was finally outranked by another navy officer that was captured.
Still he was the leader of ALL of the US prisoners held at the prison, and as such he drew special "attention" by his North Vietnamese captors.

I dont remember who wrote it, but if you can find a book titled "POW: The American experience in Vietnam", I strongly suggest reading it.
It will give you a very graphic account of what the American pilots went thru when they were captured, including John McCain.

BTW advocate,
I served in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Does that make me a war criminal also?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 09:39 am
Advocate's offensive blather is not representative of Democrats or liberals (at least as far as I am a liberal).

I disagree with much of McCain's politics-- but I will never question his service which I respect and appreciate.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 09:51 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Advocate's offensive blather is not representative of Democrats or liberals (at least as far as I am a liberal).

I disagree with much of McCain's politics-- but I will never question his service which I respect and appreciate.


I havent paid any serious attention to the race yet, so I know very little about what McCain stands for or what his platform is.
I have been waiting till after Florida, so the herd would thin out some.
But there is no way I will ever challenge his service record.
Even the most virulent McCain hater, if they are honest, cant challenge his service record.

As for advocates blather, he sounds like a person that attacked me on here when I got back from Iraq, a "person" called HenryGreen.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 02:25 pm
Tico, you dislike it when I refuse to answer certain questions that you hope will make your negative points. However, you (and the other conservatives) will not weigh in, as I requested, on McCain's membership in the Keating Five. How can anyone vote for a guy who cost the taxpayers about half a trillion dollars in connection with looted S & Ls?

McCain was never a leader. He was a pilot. His seniority in the prison camp was not due to performance. He was never a leader in congress. He actively participated in the massive bombing of mostly civilian targets in Nam. Did that make him a hero? No way!
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 02:31 pm
Advocate wrote:
Tico, you dislike it when I refuse to answer certain questions that you hope will make your negative points. However, you (and the other conservatives) will not weigh in, as I requested, on McCain's membership in the Keating Five. How can anyone vote for a guy who cost the taxpayers about half a trillion dollars in connection with looted S & Ls?

McCain was never a leader. He was a pilot. His seniority in the prison camp was not due to performance. He was never a leader in congress. He actively participated in the massive bombing of mostly civilian targets in Nam. Did that make him a hero? No way!


Well there you have it. Another coward heard from.

Only a selfish moron could look at the accomplishments of McCain and say what you just said.

The only thing you served, was yourself.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 03:11 pm
woiyo, I see that you are another mindless conservative, who sees nothing wrong with McCain's involvement in the looting of the S&Ls, support for the continuation of a despicable war, support for massive tax cuts for the super rich, etc.

You and McCain are both worthless sh*ts.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 04:16 pm
Let me intrude please.
American Election system is
rotten to the core and rubbish show business to booth with.
Unless the system change you get
only coke pure and cocke light which is kid's democracy.
A country like USA should bestow the attention and
invest the intelligence to modernize this two party system.

Try not to change the jackey to win the race
when the horse if sick and dying.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 09:48 pm
Advocate wrote:
Tico, you dislike it when I refuse to answer certain questions that you hope will make your negative points.


It isn't correct to say I "dislike it." It would be correct to say I believe you lack the spine (or more likely, brain) to back up your positions with an intelligent argument. You tend to just want to state your position on a particular issue, but then you don't want to substantiate it, and generally refuse to defend it with a logical or reasoned argument.

The reason your answering my questions will "make" my "negative points," is because your position is so weak to begin with, it will not stand up to scrutiny.
0 Replies
 
hanno
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jan, 2008 10:14 pm
Advocate wrote:
hanno wrote:
Advocate wrote:

McCain is not a war hero. He was a POW, who committed war crimes when he bombed cities and villages. He is Bush Lite.


Can't see you crawling out of a flaming jet fighter over top of the refueling-stem. You'd probably try to put out the fire by pissing your pants.



Do you think that McCain trying to save his ass makes himself a hero? Duh, I don't think so.


I said nothing about what he tried to do, I said what he did, and that you probably couldn't do it.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 12:32 am
Ramafuchs wrote:
Let me intrude please.
American Election system is
rotten to the core and rubbish show business to booth with.
Unless the system change you get
only coke pure and cocke light which is kid's democracy.
A country like USA should bestow the attention and
invest the intelligence to modernize this two party system.

Try not to change the jackey to win the race
when the horse if sick and dying.


As John McCain would possibly phrase it, you are sadly mistaken, my friend, and to use a little straight talk, I would suggest you study a little bit of history and find out what made this country great, because it has nothing to do with the confused poetry you recite here.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 07:08 am
Advocate wrote:
woiyo, I see that you are another mindless conservative, who sees nothing wrong with McCain's involvement in the looting of the S&Ls, support for the continuation of a despicable war, support for massive tax cuts for the super rich, etc.

You and McCain are both worthless sh*ts.


I base my conclusions on facts.

Fact, McCain voted against the Bush tax cuts because it was a bad tax plan.

McCain is the only honest politician who said from the beginning of the Iraq war that more aggressive tactics were needed.

McCain played a role in correcting the problems with the S&L's.

You are obviously ignorant to the facts and therefore your personal attack will be ignored since you have no basis for making the attack.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 10:53 am
woiyo wrote:
Advocate wrote:
woiyo, I see that you are another mindless conservative, who sees nothing wrong with McCain's involvement in the looting of the S&Ls, support for the continuation of a despicable war, support for massive tax cuts for the super rich, etc.

You and McCain are both worthless sh*ts.


I base my conclusions on facts.

Fact, McCain voted against the Bush tax cuts because it was a bad tax plan. I GUESS YOU HAVEN'T HEARD THAT MCCAIN NOW SUPPORTS THE TAX CUTS.

McCain is the only honest politician who said from the beginning of the Iraq war that more aggressive tactics were needed. THESE TACTICS WILL NOT WIN THE DAY. WE NEED TO GET OUT ASAP.

McCain played a role in correcting the problems with the S&L's. BIG DEAL! HE JOINED IN ON A LANDSLIDE OF REFORM PROMOTED BY MANY. MOREOVER, HE AND HIS FELLOW FOUR MEMBERS CAUSED THE DISASTER.

You are obviously ignorant to the facts and therefore your personal attack will be ignored since you have no basis for making the attack.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 11:15 am
Does McCain really meet this definition?

Main Entry: he·ro
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'hir-(")O, 'he-(")rO
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek herOs
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : SUBMARINE 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL

--Merriam-Webster
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 11:35 am
Advocate wrote:
Does McCain really meet this definition?

Main Entry: he·ro
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'hir-(")O, 'he-(")rO
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek herOs
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : SUBMARINE 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL

--Merriam-Webster


Absolutely.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 12:15 pm
Let's see: he pressed an ejection button in the plane.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 12:42 pm
Advocate wrote:
Let's see: he pressed an ejection button in the plane.


And then suffered through years of torture while remaining loyal to his country.

C'mon, man

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 12:48 pm
Advocate wrote:
Let's see: he pressed an ejection button in the plane.


A little more than that.

"A day or two after the Forrestal incident, McCain told New York Times reporter R. W. Apple, Jr. in Saigon that, "It's a difficult thing to say. But now that I've seen what the bombs and the napalm did to the people on our ship, I'm not so sure that I want to drop any more of that stuff on North Vietnam."[31] But a change of course was unlikely, as McCain said, "I always wanted to be in the Navy. I was born into it and I never really considered another profession. But I always had trouble with the regimentation."[31]

As Forrestal headed for repairs, McCain volunteered to join the VA-163 Saints on board the short-staffed USS Oriskany, which had earlier endured its own deck fire disaster[16] and whose squadrons had suffered heavy losses during Rolling Thunder, with one-third of their pilots killed or captured during 1967.[16] By late October 1967, McCain had flown a total of 22 bombing missions.[32]

Prisoner of war
John McCain being pulled out of Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi and about to become a prisoner of war. October 26, 1967.
John McCain being pulled out of Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi and about to become a prisoner of war.[33] October 26, 1967.

On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying as part of a 20-plane attack against a thermal power plant in central Hanoi, a heavily defended target area that had previously been off-limits to U.S. raids.[34][35] McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile[35] while pulling up after dropping its bombs.[36] McCain fractured both arms and a leg in being hit and ejecting from his plane.[37] He nearly drowned after he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi.[34] After he regained consciousness, a mob gathered around him, spat on him, kicked him and stripped him of his clothing.[38] Others crushed his shoulder with the butt of a rifle and bayoneted him in his left foot and abdominal area; he was then transported to Hanoi's main prison.[38] Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to put him in the hospital, deciding he would soon die anyway. They beat and interrogated him, but McCain only offered his name, rank, serial number, and date of birth.[38] Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care[38] and announce his capture. At this point, two days after McCain's plane went down, that event and his status as a POW made the front page of The New York Times.[31]

McCain spent six weeks in a hospital, receiving marginal care, was interviewed by a French television reporter whose report was carried on CBS, and was observed by a variety of North Vietnamese, including the famous General Vo Nguyen Giap. Many of the North Vietnamese observers assumed that he must be part of America's political-military-economic elite.[38] Now having lost 50 pounds, in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,[34] McCain was sent to a prisoner-of-war camp in Hanoi in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week (one was Bud Day, a future Medal of Honor recipient); they nursed McCain and kept him alive.[39] In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would be for two years.[38] In July 1968, McCain's father was named Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command (CINCPAC), stationed in Honolulu and commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater.[3] McCain was immediately offered a chance to return home early:[34] the North Vietnamese wanted a mercy-showing propaganda coup for the outside world, and a message that only privilege mattered that they could use against the other POWs.[38] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation due to the Code of Conduct of "first in, first out": he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[40] McCain's refusal to be released was even remarked upon by North Vietnamese officials to U.S. envoy Averell Harriman at the ongoing Paris Peace Talks.[34]

In August 1968, a program of vigorous torture methods began on McCain, using rope bindings into painful positions and beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[38][34] Teeth and bones were broken again as was McCain's spirit; the beginnings of a suicide attempt was stopped by guards.[34] After four days of this, McCain signed an anti-American propaganda "confession" that said he was a "black criminal" and an "air pirate",[34] although he used stilted Communist jargon and ungrammatical language to signal the statement was forced.[41] He would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[38] His injuries to this day have left him incapable of raising his arms above his head.[42] His captors tried to force him to sign a second statement, and this time he refused. He received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal.[43] Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions".[38] On one occasion when McCain was physically coerced to give the names of members of his squadron, he supplied them the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line.[41] On another occasion, a guard surreptitiously loosened McCain's painful rope bindings for a night; when he later saw McCain on Christmas Day, he stood next to McCain and silently drew a cross in the dirt with his foot[44] (decades later, McCain would relate this Good Samaritan story during his presidential campaigns, as a testament to faith and humanity[45][46]). McCain refused to meet with various anti-war peace groups coming to Hanoi, such as those led by David Dellinger, Tom Hayden, and Rennie Davis, not wanting to give either them or the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory based on his connection to his father.[38]

In October 1969, treatment of McCain and the other POWs suddenly improved, after a badly beaten and weakened POW who had been released that summer disclosed to the world press the conditions to which they were being subjected.[38] In December 1969, McCain was transferred to Hoa Loa Prison, which later became famous via its POW nickname of the "Hanoi Hilton".[38] McCain continued to refuse to see anti-war groups or journalists sympathetic to the North Vietnamese regime;[38] to one visitor who did speak with him, McCain later wrote, "I told him I had no remorse about what I did, and that I would do it over again if the same opportunity presented itself."[38] McCain and other prisoners were moved around to different camps at times, but conditions over the next several years were generally more tolerable than they had been before.[38]

Altogether McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. The Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 27, 1973, ending direct U.S. involvement in the war, but the Operation Homecoming arrangements for POWs took longer; McCain was finally released from captivity on March 15, 1973,[47] having been a POW for almost an extra five years due to his refusal to accept the out-of-sequence repatriation offer.[48]"


Please chirp on. Tell us of your hero, Jane Fonda.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 12:52 pm
Here is a new CBS piece regarding McCain when a POW.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/15/politics/main3718704.shtml?source=RSSattr=Politics_3718704
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 01:11 pm
Advocate wrote:



I smell another swiftboat a-hole coming. When you have a credible piece get back to us. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jan, 2008 02:01 pm
Hey, it is the right who brought us the swiftboaters. The left hasn't produced that kind of BS.
0 Replies
 
 

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