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Global Warming?

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Why is global warming pounding the Midwest with its 3rd (or is it its 4th) ice storm in as many weeks?

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Because global warming leads to extremes of weather (rain, cold, heat). Are you a global warming denier?

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contrex wrote:

Because global warming leads to extremes of weather (rain, cold, heat). Are you a global warming denier?

Why?

Stormy weather is possible only because hot and cold air masses can mix. If global warming is causing the earth to heat up, how can there be any cold air masses?

Because the earth is tilted on its axis the tropical regions receive more solar heat than the middle and polar latitudes do. It is a fundamental law of physics that heat will always move from a region of greater intensity to a region of lower intensity. Heat moves from where it is hot to where it is cold. Thus the differential heating of the earth's surface allows air and oceanic currents to develop as heat moves from the hot tropical regions towards the cold polar regions. These currents allow the excess heat from the tropical regions to be distributed to the middle and polar latitudes. If greenhouse gases prevent heat from rising in the atmosphere above these middle and polar latitudes, then these regions would heat up. This would theoretically eliminate the earth's "cold" and the earth's atmosphere and oceans would assume a more uniform temperature from pole to pole- heat would arrive in these regions but then have no place to go. Thus you no longer have cold air masses that can mix with warm air masses to cause stormy weather.

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Amazing, if the world's climatologists had only consulted with you, this whole thing would have been figured out long ago...

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Amazing, if the world's climatologists had only consulted with you, this whole thing would have been figured out long ago...

Cycloptichorn

Do you deny that heat moves in the manner in which I describe or that wind and oceanic currents develop for the reasons I gave?

What makes you an expert on heat apart from the hot air that comes out of your mouth?

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Re: Global Warming?

flaja wrote:

Why is global warming pounding the Midwest with its 3rd (or is it its 4th) ice storm in as many weeks?

I love how simple you people feel this problem is. You must have some brain malfunction that doesn't allow you to comprehend complex and global problems. I bet you're going to church in the morning too aren't you?

I just got done shoveling 6 inches of snow off my driveway....what global warming? Nevermind that 50 years ago it would have been 12 inches, and the ice storms would have been more severe.

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I expect flaja voted for Bush and thinks Saddam Hussein had WMD and was behind 9-11.

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Re: Global Warming?

maporsche wrote:

I love how simple you people feel this problem is. You must have some brain malfunction that doesn't allow you to comprehend complex and global problems. I bet you're going to church in the morning too aren't you?

If the situation with the earth's climate is so complex, how do you know with any kind of certainty that global warming is actually happening or that human activity is causing any part of it if it is?

A while back Harry Hilaker(sp?), climatologist for the state of Iowa reported that temperatures over rural regions have not shown any sign of increase in recent decades, while temperatures in urban regions (where most weather data is collected) have increased. He concluded that we have urban warming, but not global warming.

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I just got done shoveling 6 inches of snow off my driveway....what global warming? Nevermind that 50 years ago it would have been 12 inches, and the ice storms would have been more severe.

How deep would it have been during the last ice age or the Medieval Warm Epoch?

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Re: Global Warming?

flaja wrote:

maporsche wrote:
I love how simple you people feel this problem is. You must have some brain malfunction that doesn't allow you to comprehend complex and global problems. I bet you're going to church in the morning too aren't you?

If the situation with the earth's climate is so complex, how do you know with any kind of certainty that global warming is actually happening or that human activity is causing any part of it if it is?

I do not have complete certainty, but I am fairly certain based on what I know we have put into the environment. I look over Los Angelas and see all the smog caused from exhaust and other GH gases, I read and see pictures of all the deforestation happening in the rainforest, I see the weather around me getting warmer and warmer each year. CO2 is a green house gas (that is what's known as a "fact"), and we are releasing billions of tons of it into the atmosphere....and the temperature of the earth is warming (and not just in the urban zones, but everywhere).

I never claimed to know everything, but I do know that ONE ICE STORM in the midwest is not enough evidence to debunk global warming you moron.

Maybe you should ask your preacher this morning at church if god would appreciate how we are treating his planet.

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Re: Global Warming?

maporsche wrote:

I do not have complete certainty, but I am fairly certain based on what I know we have put into the environment. I look over Los Angelas and see all the smog caused from exhaust and other GH gases,

Most of the pollution problem in L.A. has been historically due to auto exhaust. But, because of anti-pollution laws that have been in place for several decades, L.A. no longer has air that is all that polluted. The last I heard the city with the worst smog in the U.S. was Houston, Texas.

Furthermore, the most abundant greenhouse gases (as I've heard) are water vapor and carbon-dioxide- both of which are colorless, so you likely are not seeing much in the way of greenhouse gases over L.A.

But consider what I said earlier about urban warming. If visible pollution does in fact act like greenhouse gases and you cannot detect any visible pollution over rural areas, then we what he have is urban warming, not global warming.

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I read and see pictures of all the deforestation happening in the rainforest,

Explain what this has to do with global warming.

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I see the weather around me getting warmer and warmer each year.

The two coldest winters in recorded history for my part of the country have happened during my lifetime: 1977-1978 and 1995-1996. Last April here was the coldest April in about 30 years (temperatures in the low-30s). September was cooler than normal, while October and December (so far) may be a littler warmer and more humid than normal, but our first freezing temperatures came about a week earlier than it would have in an average year. I've already had frost in my yard two or three times- unheard of for this time of year.

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CO2 is a green house gas (that is what's known as a "fact"), and we are releasing billions of tons of it into the atmosphere....and the temperature of the earth is warming (and not just in the urban zones, but everywhere).

According to certain scientists it is also fact that the last ice age and the Little Ice Age both ended without any appreciable increase in carbon-dioxide levels in the atmosphere. So just how does carbon-dioxide cause global warming?

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Maybe you should ask your preacher this morning at church if god would appreciate how we are treating his planet.

Not that I attend church or follow any particular preacher, but the simple answer could be judgment.

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Re: Global Warming?

flaja wrote:

If the situation with the earth's climate is so complex, how do you know with any kind of certainty that global warming is actually happening or that human activity is causing any part of it if it is?

You should really post this in the Science forum. You can determine things from large data sets that you can't from individual data points by looking at long term trends. Global temperature is rising. That data is very conclusive. Not only that, but it is rising at a very rapid rate compared to what we can determine happened in other ages where the Earth's average temperature rose. This is where the human contribution comes in. The rate of warming is much more extreme than that we've calculated for other time periods.

That human activity pumps massive amounts of heat and greenhouse gases into the environment is also not in question. Satellites can see the heat plumes coming off cities from space and the production of CO2 from combustion is basic chemistry. Putting these observations together into a hypothesis that man is contributing to the warming of the Earth is very straightforward. So far, that hypothesis has held up against tests to disprove it. You can't disprove a hypothesis just by saying that something is too hard for humans to understand, you have to actually make conclusions from the hypothesis and see if they hold up. Right now, they do.

Where this is political is that our current administration has adopted a policy of ignoring science when it is inconvenient, even when it is well documented. As a result, we've ignored global warming when the evidence of it is clear, but spent billions on "Star Wars" technology when the science behind it says that it will not work. We have weakened clean air and water rules even though the health risks of poor water and air are well documented. We resisted approving vaccines for sexually transmitted diseases for years even though we could save many lives each year. What separates humans from other animals is not our strength or speed, it is our ability to understand our environment and may intelligent decisions about it. If we ignore good science, we are in deep trouble.

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To say that man is the sole cause of global warming is to ignore millions of years of earth history.
There have been thousands of periods of heating and cooling in the earths history,without them there would be no life on this planet.

So called "experts" have said that one effect of global warming is that we are having more hurricanes now then ever before.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/What-039-s-the-Connection-Between-Global-Warming-and-Hurricane-Intensity-32981.shtml

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"I infer that future hurricane hazard mitigation efforts should reflect that hurricane damage will continue to increase, in part, due to greenhouse warming," Elsner said.

Of course, this ignores the fact that more and more people are moving into the hurricane zones along the coast.

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Several recent studies have warned that human-induced climate warming has the potential to increase the number of tropical cyclones (hurricanes), and previous research and computer models suggest that hurricane intensity would increase with increasing global mean temperatures. Others, however, hypothesize that the relationship between sea surface temperatures and hurricanes can be attributed to natural causes, such as the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, an ongoing series of long-term changes in the sea surface temperature of the North Atlantic Ocean.

http://www.cei.org/gencon/019,04817.cfm

There are more links, but those will work for now.

How can any reputable scientist claim that we are having more hurricanes now?
I will admit that we are DETECTING more of them now, but that does not mean we are having more or that they are more destructive.
We have only had the ability to detect hurricanes for the last 50 or so years.
Those that formed at sea and never touched land we would never know about unless a ship reported it.
We have no idea how many hurricanes hit land 100 or more years ago, or how strong they were.

While I am in favor of not destroying the earth, I refuse to believe that human activity alone is the cause of global warming.

If that were the case, there would be no global warming periods in the earths history, yet we know there have been.

Here is an interesting and informative website that shows the earths climate history thru time, and you can see that the entire time the earth warmed to 22 degrees C or higher was BEFORE humans even existed on the planet.
And that the temp of the earth now is near the LOWEST it has ever been.
Since thats the case, and since GW is being caused entirely by man, please show me what man did to cause GW before we even existed.

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

So, until the scientists that say that GW is occurring and that man is responsible can explain how man caused GW before man existed, or how they can explain EXACTLY how man is solely responsible for something that has been naturally occurring since the earth began, I will remain sceptical.

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mysteryman wrote:

To say that man is the sole cause of global warming is to ignore millions of years of earth history.

Good point......I'm not sure who has ever said that...but good point.

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maporsche wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
To say that man is the sole cause of global warming is to ignore millions of years of earth history.

Good point......I'm not sure who has ever said that...but good point.

Your correct, perhaps I should have said "major cause" instead of "sole cause".
But my statement still stands otherwise.

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mysteryman wrote:

maporsche wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
To say that man is the sole cause of global warming is to ignore millions of years of earth history.

Good point......I'm not sure who has ever said that...but good point.

Your correct, perhaps I should have said "major cause" instead of "sole cause".
But my statement still stands otherwise.

PERHAPS you should have said 'major cause'.....that's funny.

Anyway, what people say is that CO2 gases that man is releasing is the main cause of the RAPID RATE of increase in global temperature.

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maporsche wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
maporsche wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
To say that man is the sole cause of global warming is to ignore millions of years of earth history.

Good point......I'm not sure who has ever said that...but good point.

Your correct, perhaps I should have said "major cause" instead of "sole cause".
But my statement still stands otherwise.

PERHAPS you should have said 'major cause'.....that's funny.

Anyway, what people say is that CO2 gases that man is releasing is the main cause of the RAPID RATE of increase in global temperature.

And the website I linked to shows that the earths temp rose dramatically several times in the earths past, along with an increase in the CO2 levels.

Nobody has explained where that CO2 came from or how man was responsible for that, especially since man didnt exist then.

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mysteryman wrote:

Nobody has explained where that CO2 came from or how man was responsible for that, especially since man didnt exist then.

No one has claimed that CO2 is the ONLY thing that that has ever caused global warming through history. There have of course been other causes (volcanic activity for example) that can and are used to explain OTHER rapid increases in the earth's temperature.

THIS cycle of warming is being attributed to CO2 release which is ONE cause of global warming. Previous cycles can be attributed to other worldly events.

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maporsche wrote:

THIS cycle of warming is being attributed to CO2 release which is ONE cause of global warming. Previous cycles can be attributed to other worldly events.

Yep. It's ONE cause. Maybe the major cause, maybe not so major. What is important is the cost of elimating this possibly major cause compared to the costs of global warming. One of the costs of eliminating CO2 would be the absence of trucking bringing groceries to the town in which I live. This is a major cost indeed. I can cycle to the store, but if there is nothing there when I get there. . . .

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roger wrote:

maporsche wrote:
THIS cycle of warming is being attributed to CO2 release which is ONE cause of global warming. Previous cycles can be attributed to other worldly events.

Yep. It's ONE cause. Maybe the major cause, maybe not so major. What is important is the cost of elimating this possibly major cause compared to the costs of global warming. One of the costs of eliminating CO2 would be the absence of trucking bringing groceries to the town in which I live. This is a major cost indeed. I can cycle to the store, but if there is nothing there when I get there. . . .

Well, pretty much everyone agrees that CO2 is causing THIS global warming cycle.

I could see though how stricter fuel efficiency standards and moving our domestic power grid off of coal and oil and towards renewable resources would cause people to die from starvation in your town.

Yep, clear as mud.

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Re: Global Warming?

engineer wrote:

You should really post this in the Science forum.

Why? Climate is a science matter. Global warming is a political matter since there is precious little science behind it.

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You can determine things from large data sets that you can't from individual data points by looking at long term trends.

Studying data (assuming that the data were accurately collected and you fully understand what the data are saying) does not tell you why the data are what they are. Science cannot answer the question why without experimentation, and since we don't have an earth that is without human activity we cannot determine whether or not the earth is reacting in any particular way to human activity (if it is even reacting at all to that activity).

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Global temperature is rising.

Highly debatable:

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=513
The Amazing Disappearing, Reappearing Arctic Ice Cap

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=50
More Than 15,000 Scientists Protest Kyoto Accord; Speak Out Against Global Warming Myth

http://www.americanpolicy.org/un/thereisnoglobal.htm
There is No Global Warming

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3569604.stm
Climate legacy of 'hockey stick'

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That data is very conclusive.

Isn't it true that temperature measurements of the earth's atmosphere made by weather balloons and satellites in recent decades have shown no increase in temperature?

http://www.marshall.org/article.php?id=79
The extent to which the earth may be warming is apparently not as great as the global warmongers theories said it should be.

According to global warmonging computer models human activity should have caused a 1 degree Celsius increase in the earth's temperature over the last century. But at most the increase has only been a half degree and most of the increase came before 1940 when industrial activity was far less than it is today.

Supposedly 1995 is the hottest year on record. But 1995 was only 1/25 of a degree Celsius warmer than the previous "hottest year on record", 1990. But NASA has reported that 1995 was actually 0.01 degree Celsius cooler than 1990.

Furthermore, temperature data from satellites indicate that 1995 was only the 8th warmest year in the 17 years prior to 1995, i.e., the period for which satellite temperature data are available.

There was a warming trend from 1980 to the mid-1990s according to both satellite-based atmospheric measurements and surface measurements. But the increase was only 0.17 degree Celsius per decade. But temperature trends of 0.1 to 0.2 degree Celsius per decade are common in the earth's climate record. Historically speaking warming since 1980 is insignificant.

We can use data from geology to determine what carbon-dioxide levels have been in the past. We can also use geology to determine what the earth's temperature was in the past. But as far as the earth's natural history goes higher carbon-dioxide levels do not automatically cause higher temperatures. 440 million years ago carbon-dioxide levels in the atmosphere were 10 times higher than they are now. Doubling the carbon-dioxide level should theoretically cause a 1.5 degree Celsius increase in temperature meaning that the temperature 440 million years ago should have been 5 degrees Celsius warmer than it is now. But 440 million years ago saw the earth in the midst of an ice age with temperatures 5-10 degrees Celsius colder than today's temperature.

Increases in carbon-dioxide don't always lead to increases in temperature and increases in temperature don't always come with higher carbon-dioxide levels. Around 4000 BC the earth was 1-2 degrees Celsius warmer than it is today. But the earth's carbon-dioxide level in 4000 BC was about 25% less than what it is today.

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