Softener resin escaping

H2O_MAN wrote:

What are you wanting to know?

To me, the question was obvious, it's in all the above multi-quotes, but what the heck, I'll play along -

What is the purpose of gravel under the resin?

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Zozzie wrote:

H2O_MAN wrote:
What are you wanting to know?

What is the purpose of gravel under the resin?

The gravel supports the riser pipe/basket and increases the flow through the media in both directions.

All of my systems have a gravel bed, but new technology may change this...

http://www.enpress.com/images/vortechcutbottom.jpg

http://www.enpress.com/images/vortech.jpg

Direct questions are easily answered Very Happy

.

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So Zozzie, you get your new resin and DLFC button in yet?

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Gary Slusser wrote:

So Zozzie, you get your new resin and DLFC button in yet?

Nope. The dude's pi$$in' me off. I phoned him last Friday to ask if the resin had been shipped. He said he'd given my request to the "guys out back" and he had no idea if they had shipped it or not. That's a euphemism for "we don't give a damn".

I asked him firmly to check to see if they shipped my resin and get back to me to let me know. That was Friday. Today (Wednesday) - nothing. There's going to be a lot of shouting during the next phonecall.

Now that I know I have about 1/2cu ft of resin I've got the unit set to 4lbs of salt and 8000 grains and I manually trip it to regenerate every 4th day. I've never had so much consistent soft water!! We haven't run out in two weeks. Sheer luxury!

When I make a trip to my local Clack dealer to tell him my findings (depleted resin & missing basket) I'll try to get a 1.7 DLFC. I went last week and the bossman and the tech guy were out.

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Gary, I had to leave a message with the switchboard woman for my M/O seller to call me yesterday. It's now the end of the the week and no call was returned. So........I'm on ignore and being given the cold shoulder. I've no idea how to exert pressure except to make the worst 4hr round trip drive in Canada to confront this fella in person.

He has no honor. I will buy a cubic foot of resin locally next week.

The slimeball is Doug Dunn at Pure Water Systems Canada in Barrie Ontario.

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Zozzie wrote:

I've no idea how to exert pressure...

Did you pay with a credit card?

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justalurker wrote:

Zozzie wrote:
I've no idea how to exert pressure...

Did you pay with a credit card?

As a matter of fact I did! Tell me more! This could be interesting.

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Zozzie wrote:

justalurker wrote:
Zozzie wrote:
I've no idea how to exert pressure...

Did you pay with a credit card?

As a matter of fact I did! Tell me more! This could be interesting.

I don't know if it is the same up north but down here a consumer can dispute a credit card charge if the product or service is unsatisfactory. The credit card company will put a hold on the charge and contact the vendor informing them of the dispute. If the vendor is unresponsive then the credit card company may reverse the charge... in the US it is usually sufficient leverage to get the vendor's attention.

Call you credit card company.

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justalurker wrote:

Zozzie wrote:
justalurker wrote:
Zozzie wrote:
I've no idea how to exert pressure...

Did you pay with a credit card?

As a matter of fact I did! Tell me more! This could be interesting.

I don't know if it is the same up north but down here a consumer can dispute a credit card charge if the product or service is unsatisfactory. The credit card company will put a hold on the charge and contact the vendor informing them of the dispute. If the vendor is unresponsive then the credit card company may reverse the charge... in the US it is usually sufficient leverage to get the vendor's attention.

Call you credit card company.

While waiting for this answer I was Googling "Visa disputes" and as yet I haven't found anything very relavent. Yes I imagine a call to Visa will provide info. Thanks!

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Zozzie wrote:

justalurker wrote:
Zozzie wrote:
justalurker wrote:
Zozzie wrote:
I've no idea how to exert pressure...

Did you pay with a credit card?

As a matter of fact I did! Tell me more! This could be interesting.

I don't know if it is the same up north but down here a consumer can dispute a credit card charge if the product or service is unsatisfactory. The credit card company will put a hold on the charge and contact the vendor informing them of the dispute. If the vendor is unresponsive then the credit card company may reverse the charge... in the US it is usually sufficient leverage to get the vendor's attention.

Call you credit card company.

While waiting for this answer I was Googling "Visa disputes" and as yet I haven't found anything very relavent. Yes I imagine a call to Visa will provide info. Thanks!

Google... dispute a credit card charge

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justalurker wrote:

Google... dispute a credit card charge

Yep I did that and I'm now on hold on the phone with Visa. Thanks all!

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Zozzie wrote:

justalurker wrote:
Google... dispute a credit card charge

Yep I did that and I'm now on hold on the phone with Visa. Thanks all!

Visa says that I should do a 3-way call with the company on Monday and that Visa's presence will add weight to the conversation and that I should, in that call, inform the company that I'm returning the faulty product and that Visa will be issuing me a refund when I can give proof of return.

That should light a fire under 'em.

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If it were me, I'd buy a 1/2 cuft of resin and the 1.7 gpm DLFC and get on with life.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

If it were me, I'd buy a 1/2 cuft of resin and the 1.7 gpm DLFC and get on with life.

Two ways of looking at this Gary. I've had shoddy "We don't give a damn now that you've paid" treatment from this mailorder place. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with this. If that's how they treat customers then they deserve to get their hands slapped.

Then depending on who foots the bill for the return shipment it might be cheaper for me to buy ½ cu ft of resin ($75 up here) and put this one down to experience.

Kinda sours a fella about mailorder doen't it? Heck if this doesn't get resolved in my favor I might be a great proponent of "buy local!"

I'll just see if the pressure of Visa instigating a 3-way chat might give him some motivation to improve his cutomer relations skills.

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Here's how my problem has been resolved.

I'll do a little background on the issue I had. In a nutshell -

I did my reasearch and mail-ordered a Clack 1 cuft. softener from a Canadian water systems place two hour's drive from me. I installed the unit myself (I'm a handy fella as you will see later). From the get-go (this went on for about two months) all I could get was about 3-4 days of soft water before I could feel it going hard again. I played around with the computerised valve setup trying many settings. Nothing worked. A few tech-fellas on this site tried to help.

I finally got water hardness tests done by a local (in town) softener place and they confirmed my suspicions of just 3-4days of softwater within 7-8 day regenerations. I was running out but why?

Then it came to me - if I was only getting HALF the soft water that I should get from 1 cu ft then maybe I didn't HAVE 1 cu ft. I ran this past the techie at the local softener shop and he agreed that it was possible. He told me to remove the valve from the resin tank and see if the media basket (strainer) was in place.

I went home, disconnected the unit and removed the valve and - holy smokes no strainer!! I looked down inside the tank and the strainer had come away from the valve and had slid down the supply tube.

My resin had been washed away during the backwash cycle. I measured the resin depth and I had 14" of it which was slightly less than half the depth of the unit at the local dealer's shop. I think theirs was 30".

As the strainer clicks into lace with a right turn I concluded that it had never been installed correctly by the seller who assembles the units.

My calls back to the seller were met with indifference and accusations - that *I* should have checked that the basket was in place when I installed the tank. How about that! I'm supposed to re-check their assembly work? Ahemm. Rolling Eyes

A promise to ship me 1/2 cu ft of resin never materialized over the next two weeks.

I posted my frustration above and forum poster "Justalurker" suggested getting Visa in on the issue (thanks 'Lurker!).

I'll cut the story really short here. The Visa Dispute lady (bless her heart) got me in a 3-way phonecall with the seller and told them that this would get resolved in my favor or I would just be credited the money back. The lady was quite firm with the seller and gave resolvement timeframes to meet.

My request was that I return the whole unit (at their expense) and get a refund. The final negotiated outcome was (this was their counter offer) that they prepare a new resin tank for me (with a full cu ft of resin!) and have their installation man deliver and install it personally. This morining he made the 2 hour (one way) trip on a snowy day and installed my new tank. He just left.

Hopefully, with a WHOLE one cubic foot of resin I'll now get a WHOLE 7-8 days of soft water. Sheer luxury!! Rolling Eyes

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Zozzie wrote:

I posted my frustration above and forum poster "Justalurker" suggested getting Visa in on the issue (thanks 'Lurker!).

Rather than "you buying .5 cu ft of resin and get on with life" as someone else posted, you asked "how to exert pressure"... it's always smart to do business with strangers and faceless online sellers of any product using the security and protection of a major credit card.

You're welcome and I hope the problem is resolved.

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Zozzie wrote:

Here's how my problem has been resolved.

I posted my frustration above and forum poster "Justalurker" suggested getting Visa in on the issue (thanks 'Lurker!).

The Visa Dispute lady (bless her heart) got me in a 3-way phonecall with the seller and told them that this would get resolved in my favor or I would just be credited the money back. The lady was quite firm with the seller and gave resolvement timeframes to meet.

My request was that I return the whole unit (at their expense) and get a refund. The final negotiated outcome was (this was their counter offer) that they prepare a new resin tank for me (with a full cu ft of resin!) and have their installation man deliver and install it personally. This morining he made the 2 hour (one way) trip on a snowy day and installed my new tank. He just left.

Hopefully, with a WHOLE one cubic foot of resin I'll now get a WHOLE 7-8 days of soft water. Sheer luxury!!

Yes the dealer screwed up, no excuse for teh way he handled this but... you saved hundreds of bucks buying "mail order" and a 1/2 cuft of resin would have cost $75 I think you said and now you used a 15 lb sledge hammer to 'exert some pressure' to adjust things but didn't get what you wanted which was to return the product for full refund at no cost.

Had you got what you wanted, then you'd have to go through the whole buying another softener thing and probably paid hundreds more for it. And I said buy a 1/2 cuft and correct DLFC button and get on with life. Now I'm slammed for my suggestion but...

If we analyze your present situation... they bring you a tank and 1.0 cuft of resin, note I didn't say NEW... did they change the DLFC, you haven't said? That was the cause of the lost resin and the top basket being unsnapped and fallen down allowed more resin out of the tank quicker than had it been snapped in place but...

Taking the VISA big hammer route, unless he loaded the tank with you watching, you now know nothing about the inside of your softener, or if the resin and tank are new AND you've used your one'n only trump card. All to save $75 and a half hour of your time to add the new resin yourself.

Had I been the dealer, I would have sent you a new 1 cuft bag of resin and gravel for a 9" x 48" tank telling you to throw away what was in the tank.

I have run about $800k of credit card sales and another $170k through personal checks and I have never had a problem but IMO, if you have another problem now, you'll probably find you're on your own with no VISA recourse as you would have had you bought new resin from him or another dealer.

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Zozzie,

The bitterness of poor/no service lingers long after the sweetness of low price is gone.

IMO you used the only hammer you had in your toolbox after your complaints were ignored by the seller. People that pay by check don't have that hammer and I learned that the hard way. If I had bought my next to last softener with VISA then I'd have the almond resin tank I ordered instead of the blue one that was sent.

If the problem is not resolved then you still have VISA to help you. They will, and can, charge the sale back to the seller for quite a while even if you've paid your VISA bill.

I recall you found a local guy you were impressed with after you had received your softener from the mail order guy.

If you had it to do over again would you buy a softener mail order or from that local guy?

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Quote:

Yes the dealer screwed up, no excuse for teh way he handled this but... you saved hundreds of bucks buying "mail order"

No I didn't Gary. The M/O price and the local dealer price were within (less than) $100 dollars of each other.

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and a 1/2 cuft of resin would have cost $75 I think you said and now you used a 15 lb sledge hammer to 'exert some pressure' to adjust things

Principles Gary. Principles.

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but didn't get what you wanted which was to return the product for full refund at no cost.

Shoot for the stars when all you really want is the moon. All I needed was about 1/2 a ft of resin. I got them to admit they were wrong, gave poor (zero) CS and sent out shoddy product. See my quote above on principles.

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Had you got what you wanted, then you'd have to go through the whole buying another softener thing and probably paid hundreds more for it.

See my words above about the local storefront. They've been testing my water for free many times and seem like decent people willing to listen and advise someone who didn't buy a thing from them. With my hindsight firmly in place I should have originally bought from them.

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And I said buy a 1/2 cuft and correct DLFC button and get on with life. Now I'm slammed for my suggestion but...

I didn't slam you; 'Lurker did. I just didn't choose to take your advice.

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If we analyze your present situation... they bring you a tank and 1.0 cuft of resin, note I didn't say NEW... did they change the DLFC, you haven't said? That was the cause of the lost resin and the top basket being unsnapped and fallen down allowed more resin out of the tank quicker than had it been snapped in place but...

Who knows if ANY mailorder or storefront softener OR its reson is new?
DLFC? Both the M/O and the storefront Clack guys say that the fitted DLFC is what they suggest and fit for the resin they use. I can't and won't tell them they're wrong no more than I would tell you. I don't know the exact theory or calculations for DLFC size and until I can PROVE to myself that I need a smaller DLFC then I don't have much choice but to stay with what I have.
I will ask this rhetorical question Gary - if, as you say above, the DLFC is responsible for my resin loss, WHY would two Clack retailers keep using a DLFC that allows customer resin to be flushed? Surely, eventually, customers would be saying "Errr why don't I have any soft water?" and why, if resin reduction was found to be the cause (if they had MY powers of deduction and diagnosis) wouldn't they come up with the reason for it happening?

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.............unless he loaded the tank with you watching, you now know nothing about the inside of your softener, or if the resin and tank

Read up a few paragraphs Gary. I take anyone's M/O or retail tank on blind faith too. How do even you know if your drop-shipped units are new with new resin? The average consumer wouldn't have a clue.

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AND you've used your one'n only trump card.

I very much doubt Visa's involvement was a one-time only deal per transaction.

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Had I been the dealer, I would have sent you a new 1 cuft bag of resin and gravel for a 9" x 48" tank telling you to throw away what was in the tank.

I got some good ol' ass-kissin personalized C-S. I got the whole shebang checked over and set up and by their 'expert' - not just a "once in 28 years" installer like myself. He was impressed with the job I did and whatsmore, it's now been installed and set up by them so they can't blame anything on me - like they tried to do.

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if you have another problem now, you'll probably find you're on your own with no VISA recourse as you would have had you bought new resin from him or another dealer.

I can't imagine why.

I just hoped that you could be happy for me Gary, that my problem seemed to be solved (DLFC size and its future pending disaster notwithstanding). Sure I didn't solve it using your suggestion but as I said waaaaay back in one of my earlier posts - I run all info through my noggin and decide what's best for ME. This time was no exception. I'd be a fool to do otherwise.

I could have lied today just to get your approval. Maybe everything I've said so far is a lie. No-one knows who or what they're dealing with through the anonymous Internet.

I'll leave it to others to have a more blunt opinion of your response. My style is to state my reasons for my personal decisions. Thanks too for all your help.

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Quote:

I recall you found a local guy you were impressed with after you had received your softener from the mail order guy.
If you had it to do over again would you buy a softener mail order or from that local guy?

I love mailorder and buy many things, 'cross border, using it. I'm into expensive bicycles and buy 99.99% of all my stuff that way. I never get burned.

BUT, for two reasons, if I had to do this deal over again I would go to the local storefront Clack dealer because -

1. My mailorder guy was less than helpful and honest until he was left holding no cards to play - and he knew it. It was amusing and worth the price of admission to hear him switch gears mid conversation. M/O people MUST realize that we are vulnerable to their dealings. If they don't have impeccable credibility what DO they have? Usually it's lower prices but see below about that.

There's really two rules about mailorder or any business - 1) The customer is always right. 2) See rule #1.

2. The storefront guys were 5 minutes across town, friendly, helpful and (close enough to) the same price. Oh yes their price was the installed price too. As I had to install the M/O softener myself (which I enjoyed though) I paid for installation with my own time.

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Softener resin escaping

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