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The Failed Presidency.

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 07:01 pm
timberlandko wrote:
What is real is that this administration may well have acted in good faith, based on available evidence and on apparently corroborative though erroneous information supplied to them by supposedly trusted, or at least credible, third parties, which disinformation may have been provided with malicious intent and which was not accorded sufficient scrutiny. I do not say that IS the case, I posit that it MAY be the case. I rather suspect that in fact it indeed is the case, and I expect near-term developments indicative of such. I posit that The Current Administration BELIEVED, and acted on, invalid information. They did not lie; they were merely wrong in the assumptions from which they proceeded. That in itself calls to question their competence.


Of course it is POSSIBLE, Timber, but if you are guessing it is PROBABLE, you are being naive.

If these people wanted the truth, they could have gotten it. At very least, they could have gotten a "WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW."

They let it be known what they wanted the intelligence to read -- and, in the mysterious way Washington sometimes works -- that is what it read.

MY GUESS: The wanted a reason to strong arm the Security Council and attack Iraq -- and they were determined to find it. When it came, it came in part manufactured; in part serendipitous; and in part due to error.

Every indication is that they are as guilty of duplicity as they are of stupidity and hubris -- and quite honestly, they were loaded with those last two.

This entire fiasco sucks big-time -- galactic time!

You oughta find someone more worthy of your admiration and defense, Timber.

These people are way beneath you.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 07:05 pm
No matter how you look at it, the Admin must now suffer the consequences - the $87 billion on top of an already $70 billion price tag is making a strain. Maybe we will get an "LBJ" around March or April Cool
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 08:16 pm
I'm with Frank on this one: makes me wonder why timber keeps defending these scum. I second Frank's quote, "You oughta find someone more worthy of your admiration and defense, Timber."
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 08:28 pm
Report on NPR this afternoon on All Things Considered about the renewed ruckus over the news that the CIA is seeking a Justice Department investigation into the news leaks about the identity of the wife of retired career diplomate, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson as a CIA operative. New information today indicates the story was offered to a half dozen reporters and Wilson says he holds the WH responsible.

Wilson disputed the administrations claims earlier this year about Iraq's weapons program. He denied that Iraq had tried to obtain raw uranium for a nuclear weapon from Niger.

This comes at a time when the administration is battling new questions about it's claims about WMD in Iraq. A letter from the top Republican and Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee has characterized the admin's case on WMD as "weak."

Wilson has said that he has "credible sources" that say Karl Rove "at a minimum did nothing to stop the leaks and may have condoned it." Wilson suggests that the leaks were intended to discourage others from coming forward with contradictory information about the WH's case for WMD in Iraq.

Charles Schumer is calling for an Independent Investigation into the matter, suggesting John Ashcroft, who was, of course, appointed by the president, will have a conflict of interest investigating a potential security breach by the WH.

This all comes at a time when the administration is on the defensive because of the continued attacks on soldiers in Iraq, the failure to find WMD, worries about the astronomical costs of the war and polls indicating a drop in the support numbers for the president's handling of Iraq and National security.

All this presents a very different picture than the one some conservatives on this board prefer to believe. We love ya, guys, but reeeeeeeeeeally, it's not all rosy for good ole GW at the moment. And looks like Karl Rove is going to begin to have his troubles too.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 08:32 pm
The Administration will claim that they do not want to put the country through all the partisan broohaha that happened during the Clinton Administration and will therefore keep the investigation with Ashcroft and the Justice Department which, in their eyes, is a totally independent organization anyway Exclamation
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 08:57 pm
Probably a branch of Halliburton.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 08:59 pm
Committee chaired by Kenny-boy Lay Wink
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 09:59 pm
Kenny may be too busy for committee work for a while:

Is Ken's Cloaking Device Failing?

Quote:
SEC Seeks Documents From Ex-Enron Chief
MARTIN CRUTSINGER
Associated Press
Mon, Sep. 29, 2003
WASHINGTON - The Securities and Exchange Commission asked a federal judge Monday to force former Enron Corp. chairman Kenneth L. Lay to turn over documents sought for an SEC investigation of the bankrupt Houston energy company ...
... In its court filing, the SEC said Lay had told the agency the documents in dispute included copies of Enron memoranda and other documents that included Lay's handwriting as well as copies of letters, position papers and drafts of speeches.

Through his attorneys, Lay had refused to produce the documents on the self-incrimination claim.

"The documents withheld by Lay, generated during his tenure at Enron, are corporate records," the SEC said in Monday's court filing. The agency said that there was no Fifth Amendment protection for the corporate records, and they must be turned over "even when the records might tend to incriminate the individual personally."


The SEC is not noted for poor fishing technique; they rarely jerk the rod unless they figure they're sinking the hook into a big one.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 10:15 pm
And Timber, you brought up the Clinton "lie" so I'll have to address it further........even though you say that only the fact of the "lie" is important.


Timber wrote:
Quote:
Much the same sort of sophistry and subversion of fact exists in the popular myth that the impeachment of Clinton revolved around his affair with Lewinsky. The conviction and sanctions levied against him specifically address his having been proven to have lied under oath in the matter of Jones vs. Clinton. The text of the lie, the personages or events comprising the circumstance of the lie, nor any other aspect of the lie, simply are not germaine. The issue was that a lie, irrespective concerning what or whom, uncontestably was issued while under oath, a simple fact now clouded irretrievably by spin.


First of all Timber, I don't think there's an adult person alive who doesn't know that "it" was about the "lie," as was Paula Jones, and Kathleen Wiley and Jennifer Flowers. It was never about sex. It was about "It." "It" was about an attempt to take down a president by the very people who were accusing that president of telling a "lie."

Joan Didion, in "Uncovering Washington," in The New York Review of Books, June 24, 1999:

Quote:
{The story was} . . . detailed by Renata Adler in the Los Angeles Times Book Review on March 14, 1999, that by the time Linda Tripp surfaced on the national screen as Monica Lewinsky's confidante she had already testified in four previous Office of the Independent Counsel investigations: Filegate, Travelgate, the Vincent Foster suicide, and Whitewater.

What we now know occurred during the past year was, in other words, a covert effort to advance a particular agenda by bringing down a president. We know that this covert effort culminated in the kind of sting operation that reliably creates a crime where a crime may or may not have otherwise existed. We knew all along that the "independence" of the independent prosecutor could have been, or should have been, open to some question, since, before his appointment as independent prosecutor, as was reported but allowed to pass unremarked upon in what passed for the "dialogue" on the case, he had consulted with the Jones legal team on the projected amicus curiae brief to be filed on behalf of the Independent Women's Forum arguing that Jones v. Clinton should go forward. The Jones lawyer with whom he consulted, Isikoff tells us, was Gil Davis, whose billing records show that the talks covered four and a half hours, for which Davis billed Paula Jones $775.

The clues were always there, as they had been for Isikoff. There was always in the tale of the foolish intern and her disloyal friend a synchronicity that did not quite convince. There was from the outset the occasional odd reference in a news story, the name here and there that did not quite belong in the story, the chronology that did not quite tally, the curiously inexorable escalation of Jones v. Clinton. At least some of this, in other words, would appear to have been knowable, but it remained unacknowledged in the narrative that was the official story.


In medicine we call an illness "iatrogenic" when it has been caused by the physician him/herself. The patient is the one with the illness, but it's the physician's fault that the patient is sick, that is the physician caused the illness. So we really shouldn't go on about the significance of the "lie." It's a moot point. Isn't this called entrapment in certain investigations? Isn't it against the law? Or at least it's not possible to charge a person with a crime they were set up to commit. Isn't that right? Or am I having another senior moment?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 10:20 pm
Good girl!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 10:27 pm
Is Bush's War in Iraq A "Brain Fart"?

Did retired General Anthony Zinni really call George W. Bush's war in Iraq a "brain fart"? That seems to be the case. But first, some background.

On Thursday night, Zinni, the former commanderof the U.S. Central Command, was interviewed by Ted Koppel on Nightline. And he was rather sharp in his assessment of George W. Bush's policy in Iraq. Before the war, Zinni, who had been an envoy for Bush in the Middle East, opposed a U.S. invasion of Iraq, arguing that Saddam Hussein did not pose an imminent threat. On Nightline, Zinni compared Bush's push for the war with the Gulf of Tonkin incident -- an infamous episode in which President Lyndon Johnson misrepresented an attack on two U.S. Navy destroyers in order to win
congressional approval of the war in Vietnam -- and he challenged "the credibility behind" Bush's prewar assertions concerning Iraq's possession
of weapons of mass destruction and its association with anti-American terrorists. "I'm suggesting," Zinni said, "that either the [prewar] intelligence was so bad and flawed -- and if that's the case, then somebody's head ought to roll for that -- or the intelligence was exaggerated or twisted in a way to make a more convenient case to the
American people." Zinni said he believed that Hussein had maintained "the framework for a weapons of mass destruction program that could be quickly activated once sanctions were lifted" and that such a program, while worrisome, did not immediately endanger the United States.

Zinni raised the issue that Bush might have purposefully misled the public and not shared with it the true reason for the war: "If there's a strategic decision for taking down Iraq, if it's the so-called neoconservative idea that taking apart Iraq and creating a model democracy, or whatever it is,
will change the equation in the Middle East, then make the [public] case based on that strategic decision ... I think it's a flawed -- like the
domino theory -- it's a flawed strategic thought or concept ... But if that's the reason for going in, that's the case the American people ought to hear. They ought to make their judgment and determine their support based on what the motivation is for the attack."

Zinni was, in a way, being polite. Earlier in the month, he addressed a forum sponsored by the U.S. Naval Institute and the Marine Corps
Association. There he let loose. Reflecting the views of high-ranking U.S. military officials who were dubious about launching a war against Iraq and skeptical about the occupation that would follow, Zinni accused the Bush crowd of having not been ready for the challenges to come after defeating the Iraqi army. "We're in danger of failing," he noted, because the Bush administration had not readied itself for what would follow the initial military engagement. "We fought one idiot here [in Iraq], just now," he said. "Ohio State beat Slippery Rock 62 to 0. No ****! You know! But we
weren't ready for that team that came onto the field at the end of that three-week victory." He went on:

"Right now, in a place like Iraq, you're dealing with Jihadists that are coming in to raise hell, crime on the streets that's rampant, ex-Ba'athists that still running around, and the potential now for this country to fragment: Shi'ia on Shi'ia, Shi'ia on Sunni, Kurd on Turkomen. It's a powder keg. I just got back from Jordan. I talked to a number of Iraqis there. And what I hear scares me even more that what I read in the newspaper. Resources are needed, a strategy is needed, a plan. This is a
different kind of conflict. War fighting is one element of it."

Zinni displayed little confidence in Bush and his aides. He said that their Iraq endeavor has landed the United States into the middle of assorted
"culture wars" in the Middle East. "We don't understand that culture," he remarked. "I've spent the last 15 years of my life in this part of the
world. And I'll tell you, every time I hear ... one of the dilettantes back here speak about this region of the world, they don't have a clue. They don't understand what makes them tick. They don't understand where they are in their own history. They don't understand what our role is ... We are
great at dealing with the tactical problems -- the killing and the breaking. We are lousy at solving the strategic problems; having a strategic plan, understanding about regional and global security and what it takes to weld that and to shape it and to move forward."

Do you think Zinni is angry over the war? He did get worked up as he ended his speech:

"We should be ... extremely proud of what our people did out there ... It kills me when I hear of the continuing casualties and the sacrifice that's
being made. It also kills me when I hear someone say that, well, each one of those is a personal tragedy, but in the overall scheme of things,
they're insignificant statistically." (Perhaps he had in mind the comment Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made in June, when he played down attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq by saying, "You've got to remember that if Washington, D.C., were the size of Baghdad, we would be having something like 215 murders a month; there's going to be violence in a big city.") Zinn continued: "When we put [our enlisted men and women] in harm's way, it had better count for something, It can't be because some policy wonk
back here has a brain fart of an idea of a strategy that isn't thought out."

Brain fart? That's not quite a military term. But those are fighting words. And Zinni practically counseled his audience to rebel against the Bush
administration. U.S. troops, he said, "should never be put on a battlefield without a strategic plan, not only for the fighting -- our generals will take care of that -- but for the aftermath and winning that war. Where are we, the American people, if we accept this, if we accept this level of sacrifice without that level of planning? Almost everyone in this room, of my contemporaries -- our feelings and our sensitivities were forged on the
battlefields of Vietnam, where we heard the garbage and lies, and we saw the sacrifice. We swore never again would we do that. We swore never again would we allow it to happen. And I ask you, is it happening again? And you're going to have to answer that question, just like the American people are."

Brain fart. Garbage and lies. Never again. This was harsher rhetoric than Zinni deployed on Nightline, though his message was essentially the same.
With such talk, he is in sync with Senator Ted Kennedy, who was blasted by Republicans for calling the war a "fraud." Note to Kennedy and other critics of the war: Fire away. If a Republican counter-attacks, you can always reply, at least I didn't say Bush is asking Americans to give their
lives for a war based on mental flatulence.

-- David Corn, "Capital Games" (The Nation magazine, 26 September 2003)

http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=977
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 10:44 pm
yes, c.i................Bush is going down. I can just feel it in my bones. We have Zinni over here speaking to The U.S. Naval Institute and the Marine Corps Association, saying (rather well, I think) we need a plan (and we do). And then over here we have General Wesley Clark running for President........... The year is really cranking up.

You know, last election year I watched the news coverage all year and everyone that knows me laughed at me for yelling at the television, shaking my fist in the air. I'm so happy this time, I have all of you.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 10:47 pm
Well, of course it was all nothing more than an insidiously crafted Republican plot to topple a sitting Democratic President by means of baseless accusation, evidence manipulation and scattershot investigation. Since you put it that way, the present situation, apart from the reversal of hunted and hunter, appears to coincide rather closely. I guess that validates the old aphorism "What goes around comes around" Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 10:53 pm
Gee, timber, didn't you catch the message? It's about Bush's war without a strategy, not a "Republican plot to topple a sitting Democratic President."
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 11:31 pm
yeah, that's right. It's one thing to pee in your own post tosties............it's quite another for someone to force you into peeing there.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 11:34 pm
I'm here for you to shake your fist at anytime, Lola. Try not to shout too much though ... the puppies are usually pretty much fine with sudden movements, but sudden noise gets 'em goin' somethin' awful.

And c.i., don't take this the wrong way, old buddy ... but sometimes I just gotta shake my head at you :wink: I'm sure that's reciprocated. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2003 11:36 pm
I do, really, feel all warm and cozy. Good night all.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2003 05:32 pm
Why? Did I have another senior moment? Wink
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2003 05:34 pm
depends?
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2003 06:28 pm
ahhhh, protection........Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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