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The US Economy

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 08:17 am
timber, Let's stop playing the government unemployment stats game. We all know too many drop off the charts, because they simply cannot find jobs. New job numbers is what counts; this economy must grow jobs by about 250,000 jobs every month to employ all the people falling into the work force and wants to work; those 18 and over and college grads.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 08:25 am
timberlandko wrote:
So, come November with a million and half new jobs along with a big drop in unemployment, and rising interest rates and the looming spectre of ruinous inflation will be the Democrats' war chant.

<chuckle>

You know the Democrat-as-challenger's motto: "Any storm in a port." :wink:
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 08:57 am
c.i., how come, when the labor stats were sluggish, lagging the other indicators, they were proof to you there was no recovery, but now that they too are showing robust growth, they're a government game? Sorry, partner, I just can't share your pessimism. I happen to believe, as I've been saying since back when this thread started, that the economic pilicies of The Current Administration are doing a credible job of resolving the mess left by the economic policies of The Previous Administration, which irresponsible economic policies were sorely exacerbated by the fallout of the foreign policy and domestic security failures of The Previous Administration as evidenced by 9/11 and all that has ensued from there. I take comfort knowing The Grownups are regaining control, rendering further such foolishness as that from which we now are recovering far less likely.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 03:36 pm
The recovery is meaningless if productivity increases, but the number of jobs stays the same or decreases. 125,000 new jobs per month doesn't take care of those 18 year olds and college grads that are ready to find employment. That number also fails to find jobs for those on the unemployment rolls. What we've seen during the past couple of years, the pay of workers didn't increase at the same rate as the increase in productivity. The number of new hires remained sluggish. Last month was the first month that has shown any addition of "new" jobs over and above the number falling into the potential work force. One month does not a trend make. Why not wait a few months to see if this recovery actually has a foothold in our economy before jumping to conclusions?
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 05:56 pm
Harry Truman suggested we needed "one-armed economists." That way we could avoid the "on the one-hand...but on the other hand..." explanations we get.
Re the 300,000 "new" jobs, I thought I heard on NPR that that included the 100,000 CA grocery workers who came off their strike/lock-out. I heard that only once and can't cite a reference.
I hope that last month's number is a start of a trend but, frankly, I am skeptical that we can generate 200,000/month.
In the meantime, we are told that inflation remains really, really low. Great. But have you bought gas lately? Or been to the grocery store and bought chicken, beef, milk or cheese? If you have a minimum-wage job or are looking for work or are trying to live on Social Security, how can you keep up?
The stock-market tumbled during and after Greenspan's meeting with the Banking Committee today. He was talking about the banking industry vs broad economic policy (ie interest rates which will come up in May).. He seemed to dismiss deflation as an issue once and for all but I am unclear as to what he said that could send the markets down so quickly. We all know that interest rates will rise; what did he say that was new and scary?
Thank you. -johnboy-
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 06:24 pm
realrj, I didn't hear Greenspan's speech today, but he usually uses very general language that could be interpreted either way depending on the listener's bias. What the market does in response to Greenspan's speech means very little. He's been talking for over a decade now, and the general trend has been up. Swings in the DOW in the range of 150 is not all that exciting or unusual either way. Look at the long-term trends to determine how you wish to handle your investments.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 09:30 pm
I heard on CNN's Inside Politics today that the Saudis, in an attempt to influence the election here, have a deal with the Bush administration to lower the cost of oil right before the election. If they've agreed to do that, I sure wish they'd do it now so the American people could enjoy the benefit without having to wait.

I also over heard a conversation between two conservative businessmen today on the elevator at the Admiral's Club. One was telling the other that Greenspan will raise the interest rates, therefore the stock market is expected to continue to go down. Doesn't look good, does it, for poor ole Bush?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 09:40 pm
The 30 year bond fund now gets 5.25 percent interest. That's much better than gambling on the market for most seniors who must protect their retirement savings. In the event Greenspan does increase interest rates, the likelihood of the market going lower is almost assured, because even the profitable companies are still very few in number - which impacts most mutual funds. We'll have to wait and see.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 09:56 pm
Isn't it grand that the Bush administration is again working to sh*t on the little guy. How do these SOB's sleep at night?
******************************************
Dear MoveOn member,

Today, the Bush administration is formally introducing new rules that will make millions of people ineligible for overtime protection when they work more than 40 hours per week.

This change has been in the works for months, and thousands of MoveOn members have called on Congress to oppose the new rules. Congress has responded -- bipartisan majorities in both houses have voted against rolling back overtime.

Bush is feeling the heat, but his corporate-CEO backers are determined to fatten their profits by shortchanging working people, so the White
House is pushing ahead with the new rules, accompanied by an aggressive spin campaign. Already, stories in the AP [1] and the Washington Post [2] have suggested that Bush had a last-minute change of heart, and acted to extend overtime protections to more people, rather than gutting them.

Don't be fooled.

The rules introduced today would in fact take away overtime pay from workers earning as little as $23,660.- a year. This would be a huge pay
cut for potentially millions of working Americans and their families.

It's urgent that we get the real story out. Can you help, by sending a letter to the editor of your newspaper today? Writing a letter takes only a few minutes, and we've made it easy with tips and talking points, below.

Please take a few minutes to send a letter to your editor today.

Thank you, for all you do.

Sincerely,

- Peter Schurman
MoveOn.org
Tuesday, April 20, 2004
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 10:07 pm
timber, You can holler all you want about Bush's performance on the economy, but most polls show its been going down steadily for quite some time now; from a high of 90 to a current rating of 52. blah blah blah blah... Why can't you make some sense? You are grown up aren't you?
http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 11:06 pm
Timber wrote:
Quote:
I happen to believe, as I've been saying since back when this thread started, that the economic policies of The Current Administration are doing a credible job of resolving the mess left by the economic policies of The Previous Administration . . .


Timber,

Here's a little bit from Ron Suskind's book, The Price of Loyalty," about the economy and the deal Greenspan and O'Neill made at the beginning, when O'Neill and Greenspan were hopeful about this administration. When they hoped this administration would "do a credible job":

Quote:
O'Neill -- the budget hawk -- already had a plan. Prior to this meeting [between Greenspan and O'Neill], he had written on his pad:

"We can strengthen our own hand on what to do with the surplus by articulating the principle of a dedicated flow of continuning debt reduction."

He recited the line to Greenspan, who considered it for a moment. Fine -- reduction of debt is a priority -- but what happens to the big item, the tax cut, if the surpluses evaporate? he asked.

"Triggers," O'Neill said. "A good enough idea, if it can be sold."

It would be a statutory enforcement of fiscal prudence. Balance-sheet behavior common to most companies and households -- whereby spending is linked to availability of funds -- would continue to apply to the country's largest balance sheet. Moving into deficit would "trigger" a host of reactions. To wit: Fiscal policies based on the availability of a surplus would be altered if that surplus disappeared. Of course, as both Alan and Paul knew, that would include the President-elect's proposed tax cut . . .

Neither man opposed a tax cut. Total federal revenues as a percentage of GDP -- a key calculation that shows the level to which the U.S. government taxes its citizens -- hit 20.8 percent in 2000, the highest percentage in the last forty years, during which time the average was 18.6 percent. . . .

If a combination of tax cuts and depressed tax receipts from an economic slowdown caused the surplus to evaporate -- and if there were not spending cuts to avoid slipping into deficit -- the tax cut would be reined in. O'Neill and Greenspan's view of history's "top line" was succinct: We went through this before, under Ronald Reagan, and it took nearly two decades to pay off the debts. Tax cuts are easy, spending cuts are hard. If you want one, you need to embrace the other. And if the political system is too dysfunctional to have that debate, you stay put and avoid dramatic action.

"Our political system is what needs fixing," O'Neill said in a moan that Greenspan had heard many times. "It needs to be based on reality. Not games."

And so it was hatched: a secret pact. What they were doing felt perfectly natural. Two men with nearly ninety years of experience in and around Washington, colluding to prevent an elected president -- with virtually no experience in setting national economic policy -- from acting in a way that they were convinced was ill-considered. He'd thank them later.
pp. 40 - 42.

Or so they thought.............
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 11:57 pm
Timber wrote:
Quote:
. . . that the economic pilicies of The Current Administration are doing a credible job of resolving the mess left by the economic policies of The Previous Administration . . .


Here's a little bit more on the "mess left by the economic policies of the previous adminstration":

Quote:
[Regarding O'Neill's comments during his confirmation hearing in front of the Senate Finance Committee in which] he said the Federal Reserve, through it's control of monetary policy, was the "first line of action" to fight a downturn and suggested that even cuts of the magnitude Mr. Bush has promised would likely have relatively little immediate impact on the nation's economy.

Karen Hughes, White House communications director, Karl Rove, and others close to the President read the story and boiled, especially about one particular paragraph [in the New York Times story about the hearing]:

"Mr. O'Neill also praised the Clinton administration's record of fiscal discipline and economic stability as 'wonderful.' He said the Bush administration should aim to collect enough in taxes to pay for government operations each year without going into debt -- even when the economy barely expands."

O'Neill read the Times at his desk in the transition building. He had known there'd be some stir, but he thought it was important to make clear where he stood. He and Greenspan had studied these issues longer -- and together had more relevant practical experience -- than almost any other pair in town. And they were in concert about everything he'd said at the hearings. The President's views were general and evolving. O'Neill felt his candor would nourish that evolution, or at least offer a counter weight to whatever Larry Lindsey was saying.

The Times noted that O'Neill's position "differs in some respects from the view held by some supply-side economists, who steadfastly defend President Ronald Reagan's tax cuts of the early 1980s as having revolutionized the economy, even if they also contributed to giant budget deficits. Lawrence B. Lindsey, Mr. Bush's cheif economic aide, is a leading proponent of Reagan-era tax cutting and the main architect of Mr. Bush's tax cut plan, which is estimated to cost $1.6 trillion over 10 years."


pp. 50 - 51.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 11:58 pm
Lola wrote:
I heard on CNN's Inside Politics today that the Saudis, in an attempt to influence the election here, have a deal with the Bush administration to lower the cost of oil right before the election.

Kerry claimed that Woodward's book contained this revelation of a secret deal to help Bush in the election, but Woodward has come out and stated emphatically that his book does not claim that there was any "secret" deal. I can't wait for Kerry to tell us what he actually meant to say. Rolling Eyes
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 06:12 am
Scrat,

I wonder what you think about Suskind's revelation that Greenspan and O'Neill had a plan at the beginning of this administration to save the country the pain of Reagan-era ecomonics and it's consequences. Greenspan and O'Neill -- they're no slumps. I think we're seeing the results of the Bush administration's mistakes on the ecomony. His tax cut without "triggers" and more. Bush has mishandled everything both domestically and internationally. Now someone will have to clean it up.

There's hardly a convincing argument for Timber's idea that the problems were caused by the previous administration.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 08:23 am
Lola, FYI, Greenspan said this morning that companies have been "cutting expenses" which translates to "cutting jobs." I also heard yesterday that the 308,000 jobs created in March were mostly low wage jobs. They're hardly the kind of jobs that helps maintain any kind of economic growth.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 09:13 am
That's right, c.i. And many employers have been reducing benefits, cutting salaries and hours and disallowing over time to workers in order to "cut expenses."
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 09:19 am
Lola wrote:
Scrat,

I wonder what you think about Suskind's revelation that Greenspan and O'Neill had a plan at the beginning of this administration to save the country the pain of Reagan-era ecomonics and it's consequences.

I can't tell you what I think of it unless you can offer me a citation of it. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 09:30 am
Lola wrote:
That's right, c.i. And many employers have been reducing benefits, cutting salaries and hours and disallowing over time to workers in order to "cut expenses."

And they should do so if the labor market will allow it in their industry. Or is it your contention that businesses should pay more than necessary for labor? How much more? And how much more are we all going to pay for the goods and services they produce because you don't want them to strive for efficiency.

If the natural cost of labor in a given field is dropping, people at the high end of the wage scale in that field should look elsewhere for new opportunities, or accept less for their labor. It doesn't sound "nice", but it is the way things work.

I got into my current line of work at a time when people with my skills were in demand. Wages were high... which is what drew me to the field. Over time, others like me were likewise drawn seeking good money, and you can probably guess what happened... wages in my field have become somewhat depressed (as have I :wink:) as the supply of available labor rose to meet demand. I don't like the fact that my future salary potential is lower than it would otherwise be, but that's REALITY. I am building new skills and am looking to move into a new field, where (again) the demand for skilled labor is outpacing the supply.

This is the natural way of things. Why do you see it as a problem?
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 10:22 am
Dear Scrat,

Please refer to my above post to Timber.....and the page citations, that should help you out some.

Here, I'll copy it for you in order to save you the trouble.

Quote:
Timber,

Here's a little bit from Ron Suskind's book, The Price of Loyalty,"


and.....

Quote:
pp. 50 - 51.


Do you need more? I quote the passage as well in the same post. You don't have to look too far back to find it.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 10:27 am
multiple post, sorry. It's due to my HTML problems on my office computer.
0 Replies
 
 

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