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The US Economy

 
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Sep, 2003 01:31 pm
Oh, I understand lagging fine. What I don't understand is your use of it.

Anybody who ever studied economics learned some basics.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Sep, 2003 01:32 pm
Unemployment rate is lagging - it tells us where the economy was. People are out of work because the economy was bad. It may have a leading component, just because those out of work, or just recently rehired are not spending on durables.

The stock market is a leading indicator, however, if for no reason than that stockholders are more willing to spend when their assets are improving.

P/E of 30 says stocks (on average) are trading at 30 times their yearly earnings. Price, though, is based on current market price. Earnings are as of the last annual financial statements. This could mean the market is overpriced. Could also be an indicator of high optimism, but this p/e ratio will not support much in the way of disappointing earnings.

As J. Piermont Morgan predicted, " The stock market will fluctuate." There is not a solid consensus among the leading indicators, Mama Juanna, hence the discussion.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Sep, 2003 04:43 pm
This presidents been talking job creation ever since he took office. Anybody see it yet? Not me! As of the latest stats, 9.1 million people are out of jobs. Over 3 million of that number happened during GWBush's watch. If that's how he's going to create jobs, I'd hate to speculate on what he plans to do for his last year in office.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Sep, 2003 05:01 pm
Another thought: I still don't see those robust earnings that will justifify the 30 times annual earnings on stock price. Just don't see it. My opinion is that it's going to be a long-term growth in our economy.
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 04:41 am
Perhaps CI is correct. The old joke goes:

If he loses his job, its a temporary slowdown, If you lose yours,it's a depression, If I lose mine, it's a recession.

I would like to submit the following:

a. Stock Market continues to rise- Now over 9,500 Dow Jones and close to 1900 NasDaq

b. Productivity increased by 6%
Perhaps this means nothing to CI but my studies have led me to the conclusion that the rise in Productivity is perhaps the biggest factor in keeping the Unempolyment numbers high.

Of course, high productivity means that employers can still make money since more goods are produced at the same cost.

Any employer who finds himself( because of new technology) in a similiar situation would probably not hire any new workers.

What is the solution?

Shall we bar new technology which enables jobs to be done more quickly and efficiently by fewer workers?
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 08:40 am
mamajuana wrote:
And will somebody please explain this to me:
Scrat wrote:
By definition, looking at jobs will only tell you what has already happened in the economy.

This seems to be a statement stuck out there in space. Nothing constructive follows it.

Scrat wrote:
Perhaps you simply don't understand the term "lagging".

mamajuana wrote:
Oh, I understand lagging fine. What I don't understand is your use of it.

A lagging indicator shows us what has already happened. Your failure to understand that has nothing to do with the way I use the term.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 11:42 am
The latest report on jobs in the US: "The U.S. economy lost payroll jobs in August for the seventh month in a row ........." Not a good sign for our economy, but that's only my opinion.
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 12:15 pm
One problem among many about the use of "lagging" referring to job loss is that it a continuing (and growing) item. There, it is one of the leading indicators. A jobless recovery is another one of those dreamed-up Bush terms that has no meaning. And, of course, the latest shift in blame is to China, and the yuan against the dollar.

And applications for jobless relief rose sharply. And the market is volatile, so can't really be considered a leading indicator.

So "lagging" becomes a questionable word to use.

I think perhaps, scrat, your understanding of the economic situation may not be so broad or wide as you think. CI is worth listening to - he brings great experience and knowledge to this, and, further, makes sense. The people I know down in the financial district would like to meet you. They also question the word "lagging,"
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 12:27 pm
We are in a situation similar to the 1890's. a revived global economic system (sans empires) a lack of regulation and the convergence of a number of new technologies is changing the shape of the world (and national) economy. Production, hence the "economy" may be reviving but it is not creating jobs. All that is happening is that wealth is concentrating in an increasingly global elite.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 12:37 pm
All at the blessing of or esteemed president. Halliburton and Bechtal comes to mind.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 12:37 pm
Also from today's NYTimes:

Quote:
September 5, 2003
Layoffs Rose Sharply Last Month, Report Says
By KENNETH N. GILPIN


Employers continued to shed workers in August, the Government reported this morning, but despite the drop in payroll employment the nation's unemployment rate ticked slightly lower last month.

In its monthly employment survey, which it said was probably not impacted by the August 14 blackout in the Northeast, the Labor Department said that non-farm payroll employment fell by 93,000 last month. It is the seventh consecutive decline in employment, and was the biggest monthly decline since March.

Meanwhile, the nation's unemployment rate dipped to 6.1 percent, from 6.2 percent in July.

The job loss numbers were a surprise and a disappointment to many private economists, who had been expecting that payroll employment would be unchanged or perhaps slightly higher. Compounding the concern is the fact that other indicators suggest the economy is growing vigorously in the current quarter.

But reaction in financial markets was muted.

In early trading, stock prices, which have been rising vigorously for much of this holiday-shortened week, were mixed. Bond prices moved up a bit, and interest rates declined slightly..

The fact that rising demand is not prodding employers to add workers suggests that the economy may need to expand at a much more rapid rate than previously thought in order to generate job growth.

"This is a major disappointment," William V. Sullivan, a senior economist at Morgan Stanley, told viewers on CNBC shortly after the numbers were released.

"It confirms my thesis that there are structural shifts in the labor market that could impede new hiring."

Among other things, Mr. Sullivan cited surging productivity growth, big investments by businesses abroad and the spread of labor-saving technology as part of the shift that is allowing the economy to produce more with fewer workers.

"If productivity can grow at 3.5 percent to 4 percent indefinitely, and it is growing faster than that now, it will be very difficult to generate job growth," said David Resler, chief economist at Nomura Securities International.

"It may be a very long time before we begin reaping the rewards of an uptick in final demand in terms of rising payrolls."

If Mr. Resler's observation is borne out, it will present a major political problem for President Bush, who faces an election 15 months from now.


"The Democrats have an issue," said Joe Liro, an economist at Stone & McCarthy Research Associates, an economic consulting firm based in Princeton, N.J.

But the White House today played down the loss of jobs. "What usually happens after a recession is jobs are one of the last things to catch up," said Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman.

"There are a number of positive signs in our economy," he said. "But there is more we need to do to get the economy growing even faster. The president is not satisfied."

Earlier this week Mr. Bush announced that a post at the Commerce Department was being changed to focus on revitalizing the manufacturing sector.

Manufacturing payrolls fell again last month, according to the employment data. Factory owners, who have been cutting jobs for more than three years, shed an additional 44,000 positions last month.

Job cuts were also prevalent in the service and government sectors.

Service sector employment fell by 67,000. Government shed 26,000 workers.

Those declines were not offset by gains in health care, which added 25,000 workers, and in construction employment, which rose by 19,000.

Last month nearly 2 million Americans had been unemployed for 27 weeks or more, representing nearly 22 percent of all jobless workers. Those numbers are similar to July's.

Many economists and participants in financial markets have been encouraged by recent economic data, which show that consumers have been spending at a rapid rate in the current quarter.

But a number of analysts said they were concerned by the income and hours worked data in this morning's report.

Average hourly earnings rose a miniscule 0.1 percent last month. And the average hourly workweek was unchanged at 33.6.

"The majority of economists are focusing on relentless spending data," said David Rosenberg, chief North American economist at Merrill Lynch.

"Personal spending is strong, there is no doubt about it," he added.

"But that is because of the mortgage refinancing boom and the tax cuts. Spending is strong, but production and incomes are weak. Once the steroids from home refinancing wave and the tax cuts wear off, the economy is likely to slow down."

Mr. Rosenberg estimates that on an annualized basis the economy received $300 billion worth of stimulus from the tax cuts and the extra money left in homeowners' pockets by lower mortgage rates.

Rising productivity is very good news for corporate profits, which are rising. Capital spending is improving, and eventually that may lead to increased hiring.

Mr. Liro, who is forecasting growth of anywhere from 3 percent to 5 percent over the next five or six quarters, said he expects hiring to increase in the fourth quarter. But the structural changes Mr. Sullivan described are real, he said, and will limit the rise in employment.

"There will be some job growth in the fourth quarter," Mr. Liro said, "but it won't be booming."

Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 12:40 pm
So we are left with corporate profits, which are very nice for those who hold stock (or sit on boards, or are otherwise profiteers). But because the structure of the economy has been undermined, the underlying economy will remain in pretty bad shape, and the job market may (note that "may") improve "eventually" (note that "eventually").
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 12:48 pm
Mr Liro doesn't know what he's talking about. "Job Growth" means addition of jobs to the ones lost. If this country lost 3 million jobs during the past three years, adding 100,000 jobs during the next 12 months is meaningless - especially when 93,000 jobs were lost last month (August 2003). That's not job growth. Sorry, Mr Liro, your use of words doesn't work in economics, nor elementary math.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 09:34 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
The latest report on jobs in the US: "The U.S. economy lost payroll jobs in August for the seventh month in a row ........." Not a good sign for our economy, but that's only my opinion.

Jobless Rate Falls to 6.1 Pct. in August <- Link
And that's not an opinion.

Of course, the unexpected cuts in manufacturing payrolls are worrisome, but we'll have to wait and see just how much so. September is historically a month of cuts and belt tightening. October and November will tell us whether this is a blip or a trend.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 10:38 am
Scrat, Your wishing well is empty! Manufacturing lost 2.7 million jobs during the past three years, and 431,000 this year. That 6.1 percent jobless rate is meaningless to those 9.1 million without jobs, of whom 500,000 have given up looking for jobs. Wake up and smell the bacon. Any turnaround in our economy isn't going to boost employment by those numbers any time soon. Where in tarnation do you expect this job growth?
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 10:39 am
From the TomPaine.com blog, this morning:

Quote:
Double Dipping link
Only The Washington Post correctly headlines President Bush's request for $87 billion in additional funding for U.S. efforts to eliminate threats/fight terrorism/overthrow tyrants in Iraq and Afghanistan. Somehow the editors of the The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Wall Street Journal and USA Today all failed to note that this is double the money that has already been spent on Bush's folly. Dave Moniz of USA Today does give us a critical benchmark, however: the combined costs of the Iraq and Afghanistan interventions now rival Pentagon spending during the Vietnam War. And The Wall Street Journal notes that the White House plans to spend less than one-fourth of the total funding request on reconstruction efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sixty-six billion dollars is earmarked for military and intelligence operations in both countries.
September 08, 2003 | 10:28AM
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 10:44 am
And - a quick aside - Trump's Casinos in Atlantic City haded out 300 pink slips to full time emplyoess day after labor day.
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 01:59 pm
I am very much afraid that Mumajuana and Cicerone Imposter may need to review some of the cogent literature concerning the subject of structural change.

I would suggest Friedman's outstanding contrbution to the understanding of today's economy- "The Lexus and the Olive Tree"

I would also point out that the increase in Productivity was recently pegged at 6.8%.

Those who do not understand the significance of that number are invited to review the text of Economics 101.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 02:14 pm
Italgato, The increase in productivity does not translate into more jobs for the jobless. I guess in my readings, and personal opinion, our economy doesn't have a chance of growing until we stop the bleeding in job loss. Less consumers means less buying power in the market place: that's the bottom line. You can take your Friedman's thesis and put it in a place where no man can see it; it's meaningless in this economy.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2003 02:36 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Scrat, Your wishing well is empty! Manufacturing lost 2.7 million jobs during the past three years, and 431,000 this year. That 6.1 percent jobless rate is meaningless to those 9.1 million without jobs...

News Flash: A 3.1 percent jobless rate is meaningless to the guy who doesn't have a job. If the jobless rate dips further in the next reported month AND factories begin hiring, it will likewise be meaningless to someone who doesn't get hired. That's the kind of logic (and I use the term loosely) that allows you to argue against across the board income tax cuts by complaining that those with no income don't get a cut. (Come to think of it, that gets argued a lot around here.)

I understand that economic indicators that disagree with your opinion mean nothing to you. Yes, I got that quite a while back. I look at the positive and negative news out there and come down on the positive side. You, however, seem to wish to deny the positive news altogether, claiming that the only information worth considering is the negative.
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