What is so bad about Gov. Spitzer's plan? Hillary is Right!

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I rarely agree with Hillary, but I do about the illegal immigration issue.

Lou Dobbs played the biggest role in over turning Spitzers plan by not covering the otherside of the coin.

But on what grounds exactly...

Quoted from CNN's own article.

"He (Spitzer) said giving driving credentials to people now "living in the shadows" would make traffic safer, shrink auto insurance premiums by insuring more drivers and boost security by identifying more immigrants.

But opponents in Albany and around the country have countered that there are security risks in giving government identification to as many as 1 million illegal immigrants in New York state. Some have also said the plan will encourage illegal immigration to the state.

Amid the outcry, Spitzer made a deal with federal homeland security officials last month to create three New York State driver's licenses: one as secure as a U.S. passport for crossing the Canadian border, another for boarding airplanes, and a third that will not be valid federal identification but will be available to illegal immigrants and others for driving.

But criticism has continued....Republican candidates tried to capitalize on the issue in local elections around the state."

What exactly was wrong with Spitzers current plan? He addressed the criticisms. The IDs they would be getting would be worthless for any purpose other than driving. So all he would be doing is "make traffic safer, shrink auto insurance premiums by insuring more drivers and boost security by identifying more immigrants."

What exactly is so horrible about the new plan that Dobbs had to attack it for two hours every day for a full month on the fake argument that the ID could be used for illegals to pass for legals, when it clearly is a seperate ID useless for anything other than driving.

The IDs would even be clearly marked, not a valid form of federal identification.

Spread the world, both the media and the blogsphere is filled with misinformation about what Spitzer's plan would actually do just to get higher ratings by stirring up the bigoted tendency inside each of us.

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It looks like the right is going to attempt to use immigration as the means to motivate their base this election, a base which (particularly in the south and west) can be xenophobic and racist.

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So it makes sense to make driving legal as a resident of New York for people that do not live legally in New York? You can legally drive as a resident but you can't legally reside there? That is logical?

But then, nothing about our immigration policy is logical.

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Since when has public policy ever been driven by logic.

It's practical which is what really matters with public policy imo.

It improves traffic safety by making sure they get tested, improves security by bringing people out of the shadows and getting them into the system, and lowers insurance costs. Even police officers appreciate as it lets them more easily track the very small percentage of of illegal immigrants who later end up comitting a crime.

It doesn't make them legal residents of new york or provide an id that can be used for any purposes other than driving.

So what exactly is everyone getting upset about?

P.S. I'm a legal resident of Ohio. I can legally drive in New York without residing in New York. Whats so bad about extending this and only this privilage to the legal residents of other countries as well, once they pass the required tests and meet the required standards (getting insurance etc) in the US?

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okie wrote:

So it makes sense to make driving legal as a resident of New York for people that do not live legally in New York? You can legally drive as a resident but you can't legally reside there? That is logical?

But then, nothing about our immigration policy is logical.

okie
You've got a number of problems in your country accruing from immigration. Lots of them would still apply even if these people were coming in legally.

But one problem relates to unlicenced and untrained drivers. Road safety is a government responsibility. And there is the broader security issue too.

As you know, business interests (farming particularly) make up a segment of the republican community and they want/need this supply of inexpensive labor willing to do tasks others often don't want to do. And deportation of millions isn't possible (many would return anyway). So licencing them as drivers is a real safety issue for everyone.

If those licences can be designed so as to indicate they won't serve as valid means to citizenship status or as means to gain further documents suggesting citizenship status, what is the problem that over-rides the safety issue?

And are you aware that the NY licence matter was worked out with Chertoff's people at Homeland Security?

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To begin with, the reason this problem has grown is because the government has refused to enforce their own laws, and the people know it. There is no need to deport millions of people if the government would simply punish the employers that are hiring illegals. Without work, a large number would simply return to Mexico or other countries of origin. Couple this with a very liberal policy of legal immigration for people without criminal records, etc. etc.

Allowing the situation to continue as is, is an insult to the immigrants and the citizens of this country. With legal status, the immigrants can then be treated with dignity and could earn full rights as a citizen, and be treated accordingly, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to grant drivers licenses to people that are here illegally. That is total insanity and an insult to the people that honor the laws here and come here legally.

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So, Chertoff and Homeland Security and the Bush administration and US business are all insane?

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In regard to immigration policy, yes, they aren't doing their job, and they don't understand the magnitude of the problem as it exists out here in fly over country.

P.S. Giving licenses is the insane part. I wasn't aware that Chertoff, Homeland Security, and Bush advocated that?

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Why? What is insane about it exactly.

"Giving licenses to illegals" is a nice buzz phrase but it's not what people make it out to be.

It's just so sad that the republican attack machine is so effective and the so called liberal media refuses to report the truth because they seem to care more about ratings.

These licenses would not be useful for anything other than driving. They couldn't be used for citizenship, or to file paperwork or get a job or do anything that requires federal identification.

All it would be doing is keep the roads safer, and the other benefits I mentioned before.

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okie wrote:

So it makes sense to make driving legal as a resident of New York for people that do not live legally in New York? You can legally drive as a resident but you can't legally reside there? That is logical?

Why not? When foreigners enter America, they can also legally drive with their foreign drivers licenses for a year. Thus, if my sister were to enter on a tourist visa and stay after it expired three months later, she would be guilty of illegal living in America. But of illegal driving in America, she would be as innocent as me, who can stay in America as long as I want.

Permission to live in America and permission to drive in America have nothing to do with one another.

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Re: What is so bad about Gov. Spitzer's plan? Hillary is Rig

Centroles wrote:

What exactly is so horrible about the new plan that Dobbs had to attack it for two hours every day for a full month on the fake argument that the ID could be used for illegals to pass for legals, when it clearly is a seperate ID useless for anything other than driving.

The plan is bad for exactly the opposite of the reason Lou Dobbs attacks it for. Who among the legal residents will want such a drivers license? Practically nobody, because they'd need some other license for the other functions traditionally covered by a drivers license. And if no legal resident will use it, which illegal residents will label themselves as illegal by applying for a driving-only drivers license? Nobody.

The Spitzer approach is bad, but not for the reason Dobbs thinks.

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okie wrote:

To begin with, the reason this problem has grown is because the government has refused to enforce their own laws, and the people know it. There is no need to deport millions of people if the government would simply punish the employers that are hiring illegals. Without work, a large number would simply return to Mexico or other countries of origin. Couple this with a very liberal policy of legal immigration for people without criminal records, etc. etc.

Allowing the situation to continue as is, is an insult to the immigrants and the citizens of this country. With legal status, the immigrants can then be treated with dignity and could earn full rights as a citizen, and be treated accordingly, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to grant drivers licenses to people that are here illegally. That is total insanity and an insult to the people that honor the laws here and come here legally.

And if all those undocumented workers went away, their employers punished, who would do the work the workers have been doing?

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Americans would, as soon as the wages were high enough. And according to the standard theory of supply and demand, a reduced supply of cheap laborers would drive up wages in the jobs they're working in. I think there's a good case for amnesty now and a more generous, more enforcible immigration policies in the future.

But the popular argument, "nobody's gonna work those jobs", isn't part of that case.

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Re: What is so bad about Gov. Spitzer's plan? Hillary is Rig

Thomas wrote:

Who among the legal residents will want such a drivers license? Practically nobody, because they'd need some other license for the other functions traditionally covered by a drivers license.

I don't see how you can know what 8 million people would do.

The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants are good hardworking people who work daily. In the US atleast, where public transportation is neither reliable nor readily available, without being able to drive, it's a massive pain for most people to be able to get to work.

I think plenty of immigrants would want the ID, not to pass themselves off as citizens, but just to be able to get to work everyday.

Thats the sole function this license serves, and its a function that many illegal immigrants desperately need to be productive contributing members of our society. It's a win win situation on both sides.

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Re: What is so bad about Gov. Spitzer's plan? Hillary is Rig

Centroles wrote:

I don't see how you can know what 8 million people would do.

I can't. But I can have a reasonably informed opinion about it, and I can express this opinion -- just like you.

Centroles wrote:

I think plenty of immigrants would want the ID, not to pass themselves off as citizens, but just to be able to get to work everyday.

I suppose we'll find out.

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Now that even Spitzer is wavering on this, thanks in no part to all the hate mail he's getting from people who watch Lou Dobbs nightly, I sincerely doubt that we ever will.

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Quote:

I think plenty of immigrants would want the ID, not to pass themselves off as citizens, but just to be able to get to work everyday.

Why should we make it easier for people to break the law?

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mysteryman wrote:

Why should we make it easier for people to break the law?

I don't think Spitzer's plan would do that. It doesn't make it easier to reside in the US illegally because the new driver's license does not attest lawful resident status, Moreover, the plan makes it easier not to break the law by driving without a license -- because it makes it easier to obtain a license to drive.

Spitzer's plan, then, makes no difference to how easy it is to break immigration laws, and arguably makes it easier to comply with traffic laws. If illegal immigrants accept the new kind of license, Spitzer's plan will be a good thing. If they don't, the plan will make no difference. Even that would only be a waste of legislators' time. It wouldn't be making it easier to break the law.

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mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
I think plenty of immigrants would want the ID, not to pass themselves off as citizens, but just to be able to get to work everyday.

Why should we make it easier for people to break the law?

What would we do without the rigid, all good/all bad rule bound people of this world? Breath easier and get down to work on real solutions to real problems.

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Lola wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
Quote:
I think plenty of immigrants would want the ID, not to pass themselves off as citizens, but just to be able to get to work everyday.

Why should we make it easier for people to break the law?

What would we do without the rigid, all good/all bad rule bound people of this world? Breath easier and get down to work on real solutions to real problems.

So then we should just ignore any rules or laws we disagree with?

How far do you want to take that?
I dont agree with the law making rape illegal, so should I just ignore it?
Should I expect everyone to allow me to ignore that law?

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What is so bad about Gov. Spitzer's plan? Hillary is Right!

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