What Do You Owe Your Country? What Do You Give Back?

Sophia and all

I have entered this thread very late but I must make a few comments. First I really find it offensive when anyone attempts to make me feel guilty for being proud to be an American. I was lucky enough to be born an American and it was America that gave me the freedom to exercise my free will to make choices. Even though I served 20 years in the USAF I still feel that I owe my county for continuing to provide me freedom which about half of the world does not have. I voted in your poll that I still owe my country which means that I feel an obligation to my fellow citizens to continue the contract we have with the rest of the world ,as the most potent and logical choice to bring freedom and prosperity to the rest of the world. Now if that is wrong so be it---but I have no intention of resigning from the human race as many of you have with your anti- american cliches.

Just because many academics would have us believe that patriotism and nationalism are not "fashionable" no one needs to feel guilty for harboring "old fashioned" feelings for tradition. Further more we should not feel guilty about honoring heros. Not the ones created by the media because of the need to fill 24 hours of news time every day. I'm talking about the average GI in Iraq and anywhere around the globe who are putting their lives on the line every minute of every day because they believe in their duty to help citizens of other countries find some feeling of freedom and security---these are the real heros. Please don't try anymore to make me feel guilty for admiring these heros and honoring them. Most everyone needs a religion in their lives---I honor that need. I have a need to admire and honor heros as do a very large percentage of Americans---please don't try to make us feel guilty about it.

A world without heros is like a world without flowers, or blue sky or the air we breath----they don't need to be military heros, they can be anyone who stops to help his neighbor from a burning car, or to help rescue a dog from an icy pond. We need to think that we would respond in the same way---don't try to make feel guilty for thinking that. Please spare me the shallow academic cliche that a love for my flag is sheer stupid symbolism.

We go to war to protect your right to stupidity and shallow thinking such as that.
I voted that I still owe my country and I am very proud to be an American.

Hmmm.....
I also must admiit that I refuse to wear anything with the flag logo, or "go USA," or anthing of that ilk. I don't have a flag on my car, nor do I have one of the (seemingly) ubiquitous patriotic jingo stickers. I become rather upset when I hear one of those stupid country songs that is soooooo "Ah Luuv Mah Countreee, let's faaaht fer freedom!" I consider the current administration to be the embodiment of everything that is NOT America. I have participated in protests over the invasion of Iraq, and I wept at the images of dead Iraqi civilians. I do not believe that the US is always right,and am aware that we have been wrong more often then right in the last century. I think that it is the duty of an informed citizenry to votre, and also to be aware of events that take place in the world around them. I abhor the prevailing trend toward parochialism and bigotry and xenophobia. I'm not too proud to be an American these days. To be quote honest, I fear we are headed down the road to totalitarianism,and that there is enough support for such an event that it will recieve little resistance. I also think that we as Americans must regain control of teh reigns of power in this nation, somehow...I'm not sure how, and I'm not even sure that it is possible anymore.
This rant was inspired by the message above it, which made me wish to woof on my keyboard.

No one is an island, yet each of us is a universe. Ain't that neat?

With this dichotomy the world moves about its axis.

As physical creatures of nature we are instinctually social beings. Yet we have sentience and the capacity to act beyond the mere instinct of our survival.

Our capacity for nationalism is based upon two features: the first is amplified tribalism and the instinctual force of US/OTHER and the need for group survival. The second is derived from a conscious appreciation for that particular culture and society. That any culture and society is but a small part of the value of human civilization does seem to get lost at times by advocates of a particular nation.

I was on-line at another site where a poster posed that he owed nothing to anyone, and I was reminded of just that attitude at the base of Rand's Objectivist hero.

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
John Galt
Atlas Shrugged

Now wrap your mind around that statement. It is obviously a sentient and consciously made comment on individuality, but rejects the basic biological imperative for humanity's survival and it declares that the individual supercedes civilization and species survival itself.

Unless one is born fully formed and capable of self-defense and nourishment, like some sort of bipedal shark then each human being owes something to someone else, actually their life, usually owing to many other human beings, a family, community or nation.

And this recognition is best illustrated in Western culture by the rhetoric of:

"Am I my brother's keeper?"
Genesis IV, 9

But, this is a question of personal duty. It is one answerable only by each individual. No code of laws or table of rules can be given under which all must act.


The general comprehension of "duty" is based upon society's or man's selfish interpretation and thought that duty means the performance of a series of acts which others think one ought to perform. Yet it more truly means the performance of actions by one who knows are good for others, or the wisest choice at the moment. This latter approach recognizes both the biological kindredship of human beings and appreciates the individual.
Galt exalts the unique universe each of us possesses.

Genesis reminds us of the biological imperative for survival of the species itself by showing that no one is an island.

After all, even John Galt climbed to his plateau in shoes made by someone else

Good morning!

I believe, Setanta, that there can be more beauty in a simple slogan than in the elaborated cynical and rather pedant scribbling we lose ourselves in. Use carefully equilibrated phrases when you try and reflect reality, instead of the tedious analysis we misuse to merely divide it. To caricaturize: I believe I'm right when I suspect there to be an etymological correlation between 'anal' and 'analysis'.

Antique Eastern spirituality has understood this. It has a far more genuine view of what is intellectual, 'cause a dog is not reckoned good because he barks well, and a man is not reckoned wise because he speaks skilfully.
Chuang Tzu

'Act local, think global' is an imperative maxim of pure gold. It correctly binds us all to that one social contract which is older than any artificial state pamflet ever written: that of our irrefutable and eternal natural interconnectedness. Something which no tax system can live up to.

The meaning of the above escapes me!

Enjoying the new look of the forum and appreciating same, I reread some posts. I think we're all over the map here, folks, talking often at cross purposes. There are such oddities -- let me state one of mine:

I love this country; I am not a patriot.

That's because the meaning of the latter implies jingoism, knee-jerkism, for-Bush-but-against-the-fruited-plain-ism, and militarism. All of which I need an emoticon for which looks like a little face about to throw up.

When I say, "I love this country," what comes to mind immediately are landscapes (including the fruited plain), bits of history, the American sense of humor. I do not love this country more than any other. There are at least two others which I love equally.

When I say "I am not a patriot," I say so to distinguish myself from those who give their loyalty to institutions (the government, the administration, the military, the old school, "marriage between heterosexuals," etc. etc.). None of these things in parenthesis are bad -- and in fact all are often very good. But loyalty to them often brings with it narrow-mindedness and deep-seated resentments.

All of this and more can be found in the posts in this thread. But above all, the idea that one person's emotion can be nobler than another's. Ha!It's an emotion we're talking about here, not a noble cause.

Hobitbob

Is this the same hobitbob that tries so desperately to propagrandize how tolerant Islam is but cannot tolerate my desire to express my pride in country. Notice I did not express any feeling for or against any particular administration----administrations come and go but the citizens and traditions remain. I'm not reluctant to state where my loyalties lay but yours appear suspect. BTW --is your real name Abrahim? Your arrogant posts have removed all credibility in your message for me and I hope for others.

Tartarin wrote:

That's because the meaning of the latter implies jingoism, knee-jerkism, for-Bush-but-against-the-fruited-plain-ism, and militarism. All of which I need an emoticon for which looks like a little face about to throw up.

By all means avoid any statement that is not currently "in fashion" and any statement that would smack of pride in your country.


You will please notice I did not reference any perference for any particular administration because as I've said administrations come and go but the citizens and traditions remain.

Also heaven forbid any mention that this country offers you the freedom that is not available in about half the world. Do have a desire to bring freedom to that unfortuate half-----notice I did not say democracy---I said freedom. I believe a good example in now Liberia----could it be that they want us there desperately to bring just water and food?---I believe it is because they equate USA with freedom.

There are many countries that offer freedom of sorts---I offer to buy you a one way ticket to any of them so you can "throw up" there and not here. Talk about loving other countries is cheap---anyone can do it here. Is it "fashionable to jump on the bandwagon and declare yourself an enlightened citizen of the world so you won't be embarrassed to be an American?

Kuvasz wrote:

the general comprehension of "duty" is based upon society's or man's selfish interpretation and thought that duty means the performance of a series of acts which others think one ought to perform. Yet it more truly means the performance of actions by one who knows are good for others, or the wisest choice at the moment.

It is not without some fear and trepidation that I would like to expand on your scholarly offering:
Since it is the society in which each of us lives that determines the first of your definitions, why is it not noble to acknowledge some responsibility for acting in the interest of that society---your words seem to imply otherwise.

While the second of your definitions would be more noble in the eyes of everyone (the one who acts knowing it is the most compassionate and wisest choice at the moment.

Is the first not to be admired and honored and only the second deserving of accolades?

Perception=Troll

Hmmm...Well, if you wish to know my name, you could go to my profile page, which isn't blank like yours. I'm going to be honest, your jingoism offends me. I find petty "patriots" like you to be no different from the schoolyard bullies who pick on smaller children, or from the ill-educated toothless Highlandtown "toughs" who frequently presented to the ED after picking on someone bigger than them. It was always the fault of someone else that they were the loser, that they werer alcoholic, that they were methamphetamine addicts, etc...
I'm not "propograndizing (Actually, the word is propogandize)" Islam. My comments don't even fall into the category of apologetics. You seemed ill-informed,so I suggested a few sources.
My loyalties are suspect? From someone like you that is the highest of compliments.
The "Abrahim" comment confirms your bigotry. Have an amusing day, no?

Perception -- See? You did it again! You reduce everything interesting to an either/or, black/white. If it's not within your purview, there must be something wrong with it.

We're not in a competition here to see who loves America more, nor trying to outdo each other in current fashion or morality.

Try to understand that your beliefs are fine with the rest of us but they are YOUR beliefs. Many of us have different beliefs. That, my friend, is one of the gifts of growing up in a free country. What each of us does with that gift -- and how each of us values it -- is deeply personal.

We are, fortunately, not subject to the kind of autocracy you subscribe to. You talk democracy; you offer a very self-congratulatory, autocratic party line. In that respect, you are a model citizen in the America of George W. Bush.

Tartarin:

If you would just read what someone has written before making one of your "knee jerk" responses, you would know that I did not attempt to even ask anyone to agree with me---all I asked was that other people stop trying to make me feel guilty for my feelings with their glib references to jingoism and stupid symbolism when refering to the use of the word patriotism and love of flag.

BTW since none of us can read too much, I'm certain your "steel trap" mind would quickly devour a recent book called "Absolutely American-Four Years at West Point by a contributing editor of Rolling Stone. You just might gain some insight into a terribly "jingoistic" term that West Point and most of the American public cherishes---DUTY, HONOR COUNTRY. You cannot accuse any writer from Rolling Stone of being biased for the right.

You also wrote:

What each of us does with that gift -- and how each of us values it -- is deeply personal.

You are correct but if I choose to voice it occasionally I have the right to be free from shallow references of "jingoism" just as others who choose to follow the herd and only voice cliches of the herd, are just as well within their right You deny it is not just " being fashionable" but me----I'm not so certain.

Perception, none of us are trying to make you feel guilty. That you apparently do should tell you something.

Hobitbob:

I'll make just this one last response to you:

You wrote:I'm not "propograndizing (Actually, the word is propogandize)" Islam. My comments don't even fall into the category of apologetics. You seemed ill-informed,so I suggested a few sources.

The way you use the word it is ProgaGRANDIZE!

Actually, Sofia, who created this thread, said, it was open to all countries.



perception

I like the way, you teach us foreigners your language! Might well be, we understand you even better by that!

Walter:

Tell me is Germany in the West or East? If you're in the East your thought patterns will probably inhibit any understanding. Oh Oh --- I just noticed you are in "Old Europe". That really presents a barrier to any future understanding.

BTW your Champion News agency BBC, just reported that Germany has fallen into recession with 10 % unemployment. MY MY did losing a few American tourists have that much of an impact on your blazing economy? Maybe it was the talk that we were moving all our bases except one to the eastern bloc countries.
My suggestion to you is to dump Schroeder before it's too late. I've also noticed that Chirac is very quiet --- the french socialists who have just become capitalists must have told him to go sit in a corner with a"DUNCE' cap on. They suddenly have a glut of empty hotel rooms and french wine.

Perception, thank you for hijacking a thread that was filled with thoughtful responses before you showed up. One of the advantages of the US is that ALL opinions, no matter how belligerent, are tolerated. One is free to make a fool of himself, or not, as he wishes.

Then please continue Sir Hobitbob.

Walter, since you are closer to the sources, can you find examples of the "hyper-nationalism" that was used to promote fascism in the 1920s and 1930s?
Thanks.
Robert

Have you met Mr. Perception,yet?