Appreciate the question, Thomas, as it helps to prove I wasn't on an Up With America quest.
You are right. If I was gleaning my benefits from France, I'd be devoting my time and energies to giving back there. It was more of a question of give and take between individuals and where they live. I just used the country, as the institution of laws and benefits.
Some members have moved to other countries, purposefully, due to either a rejection of their country of origin--or a positive vote of preference of another country's laws or benefits. This would make for interesting conversation, to me. Some members see countries as fake constructs--some are indifferent to the implied contract between citizen and country--and others actively choose a country, based on their perception of the implied contract.
I have really enjoyed getting each perspective.
If you make your way here, I would be captivated by your related insights!
Sofia -- I'm not "drawing a bead" on you either. But I do want to point out that you set up dichotomies and then get annoyed with those who don't cling to either side. As in: "Some members have moved to other countries, purposefully, due to either a rejection of their country of origin--or a positive vote of preference of another country's laws or benefits." Of course, an endless array of other reasons for "purposefully" moving to other countries presented itself in my mind as I read that.
I guess what I'm trying to convince you of (you and Perc, and others) is that life presents endlessly more complicated and variable choices and opportunities than you offer in your questions and conjectures. To make it more complicated, people's reactions and opinions and feelings change over time. So you're dealing here with infinitely mutable possibilities which simply can't be confined to "either/or."
Tartar--
You be wrong. I was open to all opinions. I haven't been annoyed with anyone, except those who thought I was trying to prove something I wasn't.
wolf was probably the poster further from 'my view' than anyone, but I didn't argue with him. I valued his contribution.
Who do you think I became annoyed with?
And my statement about some members relocating to other countries being either a purposeful rejection of their country--or a positive choice in favor of another country didn't proclaim that these were the ONLY reasons people relocate--they are just the reasons I was most interested in. I said "some members". Surely, there are a myriad of reasons.
It seems as though you are searching for something to argue about.
Your opinion of the subject is welcome--no matter what it is.
I really agree with Thomas.
Just thinking "what is my country" makes me nervous.: what is a German? (Especially regarding all those "new" Germans from former USSR, who sometimes speak no German at all.) [Or the Rhinelanders, Bavarians, Lower Saxons ... :wink: ]
People of Germany [and most states (countries)] are made of many cultures, subcultures, nationalities, ethnicities, "races", with a wide variety of ancestory, tradition and values - I owe my country next to nothing, but people plenty, not only here but worldwide!
Sophia
Let's face it ----- all conservatives are simplistic thinkers and the real intellectuals(Tartarin and Wolf ) see all the complexities, nuances, hidden agendas, conspiracies, coverups, corruption.........................well you get the idea----we are just not in their league.
She is. And my Republican friend, whom I refer to often here -- the one who's having doubts about the administration (to put it mildly) -- has a mind like a steel trap. I think the real rub is between conventional and non-conventional!
Walter
I have a question about your signature from Shaw who writes:
You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
George Bernard Shaw
Isn't that a bit like saying--there won't be any more wars if we could just knock the "human nature" out of the human race.
I know it's very impertinent of me to question a brilliant
-------liberal intellectual like GBS
Ack! See. They have shut me up, momentarily, with their tricky compliments. :wink:
<Thank you.>
Bumping up for OCCOM BILL and any other newer members, if you choose.
As you can see--we fought, laughed, cried, stole chickens and I had a nervous breakdown in Round Five.
Wanted to entice some other opinions, if it appeals to you...
We have to steal chickens on this thread? I stole a watermelon once when I was a kid. Chickens are much faster.
I do expect a great deal from my country.
I expect my country to allow me those unalienable rights expressed in the Declaration of Independence:
(I define a 'right' as that which requires nothing from any other person other than their non interference.)
And I expect my country to come through on the preamble of the Constitution and for my country and my leaders to comply with the laws it passes including the content of the Constitution.
If my country will just do that, I can take care of the rest myself.
I believe responsible citizenship then requires that I cast an informed vote, that I obey the law, that I be a part of the solution to the inevitable problems rather than a problem myself, and that I support myself to the best of my ability. I believe a moral society takes care of those who cannot take care for themselves and some of that responsibility is mine. And I believe a responsible citizenship requires good stewardship of the countries resources.
There's probably other stuff but I'm sleepy now and I'm going to bed. Good night all.
I don't bother my country too much, and so far, they havn't bothered me directly.
So far, its preety equal.
Sofia, a great topic. I just finished a marathon reading. Lots of piss and vinegar and plenty of thoughtful ruminations. What more can we ask for in an A2K thread?
Thanks, panzade--
Some of the posts here were among my favorites--and gave me a glimpse of some members I hadn't had yet.
Hope you'll add in your bit.
Nationalism and religion are very similar; we believe what we want to believe irregardless of what many see as illogical.
I agree with ci's statement--but it doesn't apply to the intent of this thread.
We had a hoopla about nationalism a couple of pages back-- but the intent was for anyone from any country to assess the rights and benefits derived from whatever country they lived in, and judge whether they were satisfied with their exchange--what they felt they had contributed,...
That kind of stuff.
