What Do You Owe Your Country? What Do You Give Back?

Charli, This is the very first time I have seen the relationship between Plato and Kennedy's speech. It seems entirely plausible that Kennedy used Plato's speech to prepare his own to translate it into contemporary times. c.i.

I'm with that, Charli. I also liked hearing someone say recently that the Bill of Rights acts as a limit on the government, not the citizens. Our rights are not confined to those enumerated therein.

And it always troubles me when we speak of the government as "they," and when the media speak of the American people as "they," as though the media were a separate entity, apart. Like it or not (and I don't), we are the present administration and the body politic needs a serious operation to remove the disease.

It needs to be surgically cut out like cancer.

Cut out like a cancer and then incinerated.

...ashes to be collected and shot into the Sun.

Osso--
I really enjoyed hearing your views on the subject and how they came about. Much appreciation.

There were some very personal responses, and I value them.

Hobitbob--
Thanks for the nice comment. :wink:

ehBeth--
Please overlook the drama (I think its gone, now), and share your thoughts, if you will. Interested in your opinion/story.

All--
Is there anyone other than ehBeth who says "carkeys"? This is a new phenomena to me.

Walter--
You were dashing! :wink:

Re: Is this quote similar to . . .


Is this quote similar to Plato, LAWS, XII?

"The servants of the nation are to render their services without any taking of presents, and there shall be no glossing of the practice, nor accepting of the principle that 'A present should be taken for a good deed, though not for an ill.' . . . 'Do no service for a present.'"

IMHO: We the people are the Nation. What we do, we do for ourselves; what we take away, we and the rest of the Nation are the ones who have lost.

Also, Lee Bristol of Bristol-Meyers said, "Service is the rent paid for being here." Cheap at twice the price! :-)[/color][/quote]

most often the JFK quote is alleged to be derived from Cicero, but more likely it is not the words, but the way the words were ordered which were derived from Cicero's rhetorical devices used as he swayed his fellow Roman senators 50 years before the birth of Jesus.

"such literary device that made that possible is a chiasmus, which consists of two corresponding pairs arranged not in parallels (a-b-a-b) but in inverted order (a-b-b-a). For example, when Cicero says "…castrorum impedatorem ducemque hostium…" (II.5.16). The use of a chiasmus helps to make a memorable statement. The most famous line within Kennedy's speech is proof of that. "And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country." It was this kind of emphasis and unity that made the speech so effective. "

http://hyper.vcsun.org/HyperNews/battias/get/cs327/s02/ird/25.html?nogifs

a common one we all know is "its not the size of the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog that matters."

kuvasz, Thank you for sharing this information on Cicero and Kennedy. I would never have made the connection without your post. Thx a mill. c.i.

Famous quotes. Just had to share this one. c.i.
***************************************
Have you ever wondered where the phrase "You gotta be shittin' me" came from?
Well, it just so happens to have originated through the Father of our Country. Way back, George Washington was crossing the Delaware River
with his troops. There were 33 in Washington's boat. It was extremely dark and storming furiously and the water was tossing them about.
Finally, Washington grabbed Corporal Peters and stationed him at the front of the boat with a lantern. He ordered him to keep swinging it so
they could see where they were heading. Corporal Peters, through the driving rain and cold, continued swinging the lantern back and forth, back and forth. Then a big gust of wind and wave hit and threw Corporal Peters and his lantern into the Delaware. Washington and his troops searched for nearly an hour trying to find Corporal Peters, but to no avail. All of them felt terrible, for the corporal had been one of their favorites. Sometime later, Washington and his troops landed on the other side, wet and totally exhausted. He rallied the troops and told them they must go on. Another hour later, one of his men said, "General, I see lights ahead!" They trudged towards the lights and came upon a huge house. What they didn't know was that this was a house of ill repute hidden in the forest to serve all who came. General Washington pounded on the door, his men crowding around him. The door swung open, and much to his surprise stood a beautiful woman. A huge smile came across her face to see so many men standing there.Washington was the first to speak, "Madam, I'm General George Washington and these are my men. We're tired, wet, exhausted and desperately need warmth and
comfort." Again, the Madam looked at all the men standing there, and with a broad smile on her face, said, "Well, General, you have come to the right place. We can surely give you warmth and comfort. How many men do you have?"
Washington replied, "Well, madam, there are 32 of us without Peters."
And the Madam said, "You gotta be shittin me!"

Tartarin et al, I think that I think that I think that media does need to be separate, sceptical of both, or nevermind both, the multiple of sides. We don't see a lot of people typing as Media who are coolly analytic re all. With good reason, it is hard to be. The people in the media have emotions as do we all, and oft get paid for playing them up. I think it is complicated in that some seemingly ensconsced on one or the other side may feel trapped in dew. The free mind, something of a construct to me, is a very nice idea, and I would like to see some rep of it in the press.

we say carkey, too.

"THERE'S NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN"
c.i. - Here's another old, old, oldie: "There's nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes?). Plato died in 348 BC, Cicero wasn't born until 106 BC!! Back to Plato: In his teachings, also can be found the "Good Samaritan" story. And much, much more. Maybe there's a web site giving all this? Don't remember how the JFK connection first came to our attention - too many years ago. Then, there's the question, Where did Plato get this material? :-)

When I was in that transitional period between college and career, I got a tremendous amount of help from people interested in what I was going to do -- introductions, tips, ego-boosts, letters and phone calls about interesting jobs. Of course I thanked everyone who helped, as one does. But I knew something then and know it much better now: you don't always return the favor to the person who helped you. Instead you become that person later in life, helping, whenever possibly, others who need help. That could be helping out in a hospital, or delivering Meals On Wheels, or donating your skills to the Planning Commission, or running vans of blankets and food into the city for the homeless on a cold night. People growing up in freedom and prosperity grow up the opportunity to be altruistic and Americans are known as altruists. (Regard for others as a principle of action. From the French and Latin. "Otherists.") Our country is simply the rest of us, the others.

I'm troubled with the notion of "owing" comes into it, because that implies tit-for-tat. Altruism gives without thought of return. "Giving back" carries the sense that we weigh what we think we've been given and try to mete out an equal amount. No. We don't "give back" -- we just give. We smile warmly at the woman checking out our groceries. We allow the other guy to make the turn while we idle our engine politely and wave. We rush forward to the door at the PO and hold it for the kid laden with packages. We give the money we might have spent on a better dinner out to the rescue organization. We do our best to send out ripples of kindness and generosity rather than regard our American soil as a battle ground in which each tries to be number one.

fascinatin' thread . . .

Tartar, What you said is so true; we don't "give back" to those that have given us so much in our past. Rather, we learn generosity later in life without the expectation of "getting back," because we've received so much from friends and acquaintances who have helped us struggle through the tough times. I think the only exception is my doctor at Kaiser. She's one of the best physicians I've ever had. I gave her a ceramic corn which I purchased on my recent trip to Ecuador. She was so appreciative when I gave it to her for my physical last month. I've been retired for five years now, and now serving a one year term on the Santa Clara County Civil Grand Jury to give back to my community. It's been a life full of good surprises, good friends, and job satisfaction. Couldn't ask for more. c.i.

Me too, CI. I get the gratitude thing at least once a day.

I appreciate your contribution to the topic, Tartarin. Sort of like Pay It Forward, without consideration to entities and institutions, but focusing on humankindness.

Everyone's forms of service here have seemed very valuable to me.

I wish VNN would visit. I'd be very interested to hear her thoughts.

I guess my feeling about giving back is when it comes down to it, just trying to leave the place richer for your being there - adding to the sum total of good things on the planet - but I mainly act where I am because i live here.

This includes a million things - from letting people into traffic when I don't have to, to money, through teaching, through my work, through planting trees.

Whatever...

Just out of curiosity, Sofia:

Suppose you spend a year in France -- no offense From your contributions in some other threads, I gather that you would definitely not consider it "your country". But I have a funny feeling that except for voting, you would still do everything on your list. You'd still report criminals to the police, you'd still pay taxes, you'd recycle your garbage, and you'd still help out in your kids' schools and your neighborhood. With this in mind, are you really sure these are things you owe to America by virtue of being an American?

As for myself, I don't care about countries, I care about individuals. And while I feel indebted to many individual people, and while I also feel that other individual people are indebted to me, I don't believe that the Federal Republic of Germany and I owe anything to each other just because I'm German. I served in the army because I was drafted, I pay taxes and recycle because it's the law, and I do a bit of community service beyond that because I like to. But as a general rule, I feel my country and I are both best off if we leave each other alone.

Next year, I'll probably move to America -- I won the Green Card lottery two months ago. But beyond abiding the law, I expect I won't feel any particular obligation to America either, and neither should America feel any particular obligation to me.

-- Thomas