WHY CANT'T HE JUST TALK ?

Ok, for everyone who is saying It is my problem so I have to fix it. Well, I don't know. I am perfectly happy with my life and me and him not talking, I mean really talking. Divorce or separation is not in my Dictionary.

He for some reason thinks I really don't love him. I think he believes if we did not get married so early I would not have married him. That is his problem. I really believed in him being The prince on the white horse or the knight in the shining armour. It is not that I do not love him. I might be getting tired of being the Cinderella, Queen Mother, Health care provider, House hold manager, and the Wife that I want to be all by myself.
Now to learn about cars, action movies, caged birds, SOZ, please have mercy on me.

So in order to for him to understand why I am unable to put in any more energy in the romantic relationship , he would have to make an effort to see where and how my energy is spent. Not just physical energy but emotional energy. I do not think he is capable of understanding THat emotiomnl deal. Any thing having to do with emotions hits the Shining armour that I had soooo wanted to be protected with.





BTW Aviary has been passed by the city. The birds are in and growing. The homeowner's asssociation just announced that they too will inspect the whole thing. Our plan is " I know they won't approve the birds. The day they come to inspect, I will have to open all windows get the birds in Breakfast area ( and the ywon't go to other contigous areas?) for a little bit. Because the cages are disposed off. Practical, problem solver, and all that, am I lucky or what?

Those aren't really the only options. My husband and I are both pretty alpha -- we're used to having a lot of control in our own spheres, and frequently find ourselves in positions of leadership. We've figured out how to manage that within our marriage (not without a lot of negotiating!) so that there is mutual give and take rather than anything too one-sided.

There has to be SOME mutual give, I think -- if nobody's giving and everyone's taking, I just can't see that ending well.

I'm trying to figure out what you're going for here, exactly, so I can best advise.

1.) Just venting? That's fine, vent away -- let us know though so we can stop with the advice.
2.) Looking for advice? If so, on what? Making your marriage better?

I can't really tell if you have any hope for the marriage improving, if that's even a goal. There is a whiff of fatalism about your posts -- that you think your marriage is flawed, and that it's not going to get better, but that divorce is not an option for you so you're just going to grit your teeth and bear it.

Dr. Mom,

Asked where your lanai was(geographically) because I never hear mainlanders refer to their porches as a lanai Never heard the expression until I moved to the Pacific Rim.

aloha

I never heard it either until we moved to NE Florida. We sometimes call it a Patio but everyone else call their's Lanai's. I just think that sounds so cool.

Soz. Will reply to your post later, it requires some processing as always.

No, Not just venting, I am myself trying to understand where is the flaw. Giving specific examples for some reason didn't seem very sophisticated but I guess without it my questions remain vague. So you will have to suffer through them.

I have tried to negotiate our domains. I believe with certain knowledge of Nutrition, meal planning ( for kids, for him I always ask) is my responsibility so there should be no friction. I try to make morning Breakfast pleasant. Some days ago I sensed that we are pushing kids to eat, like , finish your cereal, don't talk, we are late for school. I figured to make situation better let's do something simple ,nutritous and less time consuming. I discussed with them that as long as you finish your Milk and fruit you will not be asked to eat anything else.

One thing I have identified is that instead of venting frustrations directly , he just finds outlets. That morning he was just frustrated because he starts checking his emails at 5 am and that determines what kind of a day we are starting. He just bursted out on the nanny who sets the breakfast table. Where is my kids breakfast? She mumbled in Spanish (which he does not understand at all) that this is what she has been asked to prepare the night before. HE continued saying Where are Eggs, cereal, toast, things they can eat? I tried to explain that they eat a snack in school pretty early and I think this is a healthy breakfast. I realized too quickly that this is not going to sink in at this time.so I just asked Her to prepare Eggs and toast. He immediately cooled down. We had no further conservation. Eggs were untouched. It still ruined my morning, Kids witnessed a less than polite way of conversing with helpers and saw Mommy just has to provide what is being asked to settle, (I had a discussion with kids re; breakfast the night before. They could process this and think a yelling fit is the perfect way of getting instant gratification. Plus I felt My turf is being invaded. I would happily prepare anything if he is actually around and supports . Here is how it goes, checking Emails, calls, walk in the garden, Birds and arrive at the perfectly arranged table where wife and kids are sitting in a picture perfect position. That too will work if nothing else is going on. If there is a businesss issue which usually is a given then nothing would please.
This was not his behavior before. It's only after he had gotten busy. I honestly do not care for the extra revenue this business is generating because it is not worth the toll it is taking. I have tried telling him that and the response" I can't work for anyone for peanuts. You think I should just work 9-5 for someone else. Would that make you happy? Instead of being supportive you are creating further frustration" Beats me. I guess I will stop here because I am getting bitter.

This is a recent example. Now any advise will be appreciated.

OK, thanks.

An image that is beginning to take shape -- though it's still rough -- is that you are both recently home more, and that a lot of the clashes can be traced to that. Working in the home and out of the home are very different experiences, especially when your partner is there too. When you're working outside of the home, everyone you come in contact with has a role. This person is your boss; this person is your employee; this person is a consumer. You have clear ways of interacting with each of these types of people.

At home, that becomes much fuzzier. (Especially when you DO have an employee on the premises -- I've never had a nanny and I can't imagine how much more complicated that must make this stuff.) Anyway, one is both in and out of a workplace persona while working at home, especially if the transition is recent. And that doesn't translate well to interacting with a peer -- someone who is not boss, nor employee, nor consumer.

Additionally, working at home blurs boundaries. When you have an office, it's easier to leave work there. When your work is at home, it's easier to slip into work mode at any time. Email is a prime example -- it's something you do at home anyway (personal correspondence, etc.) but if you work at home, checking email can instantly become work.

There seems to be a fair amount of guilt going on, too. Your guilt for not being there for your kids more in the past, and possibly guilt for not particularly enjoying being home with them (not sure about that part). His guilt for not being a dependable breadwinner.

Really, I'd suggest counseling if you're both unhappy -- that seems to be the case -- but I'm concerned that it's a cultural no-no.

I get this sense too. If breakfast is your domain then you need to communicate that with him. Did you talk to him about the incident the other morning and express what you didn't like about it? Frame it as an advantage for him, too. "Breakfast is my thing so you can read your email without worrying about it." Surely he can understand that there are, literally, too many cooks in the kitchen. Also, does he have an office in the home? Can you talk to him about keeping all work and work-related conversations in there?

It also sounds like there is some resentment about the aviary because you feel that maybe all that spare time he's spent on the birds could have been spent on you and your kids. Or maybe you are getting the sense that it will cause more work for you even though you didn't really want it -- like a kid who gets a puppy and then his parents are the ones who end up taking care of it, that sort of thing.

In reading this and Soz's and Freeduck's posts (which I agree with!) I have to ask the question(s) here to clarify things.

You said you have tried negotiating your domains. Was there an actual agreement on the nutrition/meals thing? I ask because you follow that with "I believe with certain knowledge of Nutrition, meal planning ( for kids, for him I always ask) is my responsibility... ' as opposed to something along the lines of "We agreed that because of my knowledge...".

In reading it, it sounds like you made a decision that it was your domain and what you listed of his reaction (which seems to be totally inappropriate anyway) he either doesn't recognize that or he's ignoring it. (Only you can tell which of those it might be)

You changed the "rules" and had a discussion with the kids (and it looks like the nanny as well) but he seems oblivious to the fact that the rules were changed. Did you tell him that you changed things?

Just from my own experience, I found that parents have to agree up front with what they tell their kids (and I suppose the same would be true with in-house hired help) and either one makes the decisions and the other butts out or they both make the decison jointly. If there is disagreement then it gets discussed privately and no decision is announced until something is arranged. But even if one person is making the decision the other person needs to be told what the decisions are - especailly if those decisions affect them and the decisions they are expected to make.

If you don't do that then you get the kids saying "But mom/dad said..." and it sounds like that is the sort of thing you bumped into with the nanny. You, the kids and the nanny had one set of expectations and he had a totaly different set. As a result he screamed, you're embarrassed'frustrated and the nanny and kids are confused...

Very much agreed with FreeDuck and fishin.

Thanks Guys for putting so much wise thought into it. I agree with everything you guys said. He actually has a office and I hate it when he can't resist the temptation to start checking Emails at home. But that is becoming a daily ritual and I don't think I can really control that so I leave him alone with it because me and kids are sleeping when he starts. Some of his work is done off shore so sometimes he is up 1 in the morning talking. It is hard for him to confine to any set schedule because the Software he supports can have a critical problem anytime I guess. There is a clear communication that I want him to leave for office when he drops off the kids, Otherwise the whole house becomes too chaotic with his phone calls, emails and stuff. He respects it most days.

I am actually having a blast staying home with kids. I am staying home while everyone is school/Office. That is my personal time and I need that uninterrupted. After that time I am ready to give them every bit of energy because I am not depleted.

Re; negotiating You guys know very well what kind of memories they possess. I may remember and you may remember that we discussed but when there is a need to vent some repressed frustration indirectly I think memory vanishes. If I let him vent he becomes the sweet person a moment later but unfortunately I feel betrayed for that time and for a variable amount of time afterward.

He actually is not interested in any kind of menu or household thing, he may have trouble remembering which grades kids are in or who there teacher is ( Which is fine really) but when there is a need to control , everything may become his business for that segment of time only. I guess being aware of that should help me.

It might be genetic, I remember his dad being like that.

That isolates him though from his relations and most employees.

I do not know if counseling will help because again you have to be motivated to change for counseling to help. I love the idea. In our residency program there was a psychologist to help us. I remember guys hating her so much. They hated our mandatory sessions with her. " I know she is trying to mess with our brains" sticks in my memory from a colleague.

Problem with counselling is that he does not see a problem with his behavior. The only problem he sees is " Do I really love him or not "because " I love you more than anything"

The only way I see that I don't stop loving him is if I don't keep getting more and more distant emotionally because of these behavior patterns.

One mom at school today invited me for a seminar, Which is about change but it actually is about doing it personally , IT is from " landmarkeducation.com" we are going for a introductory session. IT identifies what areas of your life you want to change and then somehow helps you. It is a personal growth kind of thing. I told him that bunch of couples are getting together while kids paly and he agreed. So let's see. My friend swears that it helped her husband open up and it helped her own personal growth immensely. Will keep you posted.

He has always been a very dependable breadwinner. That is why I left my fulltime job because being a supplemental breadwinner was not helping me personally. I have a emotional need to depend on him. ME bringing home a reasonable amount of money , I was sometimes questioning that apart from all other responsibilities it is taking so much energy to keep him satisfied, Why do I have to do the tactful job of making him feel that he is in control too? When I can do it all by myself, Very dangerous feeling of course, I feel much more satisfied now that he is the main breadwinner.
NAnny is leaving this Sunday. I am getting part time help who leaves at 5 Pm. I think getting privacy may help us. I was getting sick of being the spanish/english mediator ba/w him and The nanny and settling things between them.

I almost sometimes think that getting kids mealtime separated with just me and the kids earlier and then having some personal dinner time with him might help. Because I don't think he sees the value of communication and bonding as a family at meals which to me is more important than meals. HE thinks it is about feeding them very efficiently.What do you guys think ?

Good one. That should go in the sig lines thread.

Thats a lot of good stuff you're doing already!

I don't know, DrMom, I'm sure I don't completely understand your relationship, but it looks like you're being too accommodating of his "behavior patterns". You adjust your meal times, your habits, your job, your behavior in order to allow him to not adjust anything. And I think you resent it deep down.

It is interesting what you said. I learned not too long ago that behavior patterns cannot be changed unless the person owning them is willing to change them .That applies to chronic health patterns like Smoking, overeating too. So I guess I am trying to change my reaction to something I cannot change. I know he is a loving and caring person inside. THis is his way of dealing with stress and frustration. I might be resenting it at some level but hopefully I will get over it.

I was reading one of those magazines about celebs at the Gym. It said TomCruise is a different person because Katie just supported him in whatever he did. That was therapy for his control freak nature and inturn led to a positive change. Something like that. Does it make sense?

Not really, sorry.

For one thing, I don't believe it. Not that it couldn't happen, in theory, but I don't believe that it's the case with Tom and Katie. (I don't think that their relationship should be a model for anyone, from what little I know about it, but I also think that anything leaked about it is stage-managed and spun to within an inch of its life.)

Anyway, from what you say about you and your husband, it's not a course of action I'd pursue. I think you'd try it for a while and then resentment would boil over and you'd back to square one. A bit worse than square one actually.

I mean, you're having a terrible time with the idea of talking to him about something he's interested in. Too much work, you say. That's NOTHING compared to supporting him in whatever he does!

Yeah, I'm not really buying it either. Even if you accept that behavior patterns will not change unless the person is willing to change them, you still have some wiggle room with the "willingness". As in, it's very easy for someone to not be willing to change their behavior if there are no consequences for it. But if you really couldn't accept the behavior, you could probably work find ways to increase his willingness to keep his outbursts to himself. Likewise, your willingness to adjust your own behavior in order to accept his won't last forever. At some point you'll feel you've disappeared and are walking on eggshells, and you'll wonder for what.

A good relationship requires two participants who are willing to both compromise and stand their ground in order to remain joined but not disappear into one another. It sounds like, just from your posts, that he's basically made the relationship your responsibility, and you've accepted that responsibility.

I have no idea what is the case with Tom and Katie, ask me if I care. I was using an example of a process to expalin my reasoning.



Problem is He does not " Talk" as in really Talk. He is usually interested in "telling" me what he is going to do next. If I respond honestly that is considered Criticism, if I blindly agree that is equal to not talking ( to me) So even if I talk to him re; his interests to make him feel better I would still feel as if we did not talk. He thinks I am too much of a philosopher and what I say is Often "Too Deep" and he really has to get back to Doing stuff instead of talking about it. I do think that somewhere in his brain he is processing it and sometime later he seem to have registered it.



Agree but, his behavior is really his problem , I am making it mine by not accepting it. I have done that for 15 years. Now trying to enter another phase of life with him.

Among many of my beliefs is this " Basically all humanbeings are good creatures, there is an inert desire to love and be loved and to be understood among other basic needs. If that is not met that overtime leads to agressiveness. During the past 15 years as I have evolved from a naive 20 yr old student to a working women /mom, somewhere I have probably ignored his basic needs. Maybe it its my own guilt but like all perceptions there is probably some truth to it. Just trying a different approach for a change. Also he just broke a difficult business partnership, which needed to end but probably some repressed feelings are being expressed.

You guys have helped me understand my own thought processs, that is how any therapy really works. If you have time check out " lAndmarkeducation.com" and let me know what you think. I ma going tomorrow for a introductory session, will let you know.

I have left some thoughts unfinished which is rude but I really gotta see "real time with Bill Maher" So long.

Ok, I just love ( not in the wrong sense of the word) Bill Maher, Here is a guy who can talk.

Went to landmark education introductoruy forum, Sounds amazing, peoples lives have been transformed by it. Check it out if you have time.

Free Duck, to respond to your question , If I don't accept his behavior then what are my options. What consequences you are talking about. I know some friends who are smart with this kind of thing. They get what they want and still make their husbands feel all Macho and Incontrol. That kind of politics makes me sick. Maybe because I am not capable of doing it.


He is going through a rough time with his business, MAybe Soz you are righ t and he does feel that he is not a dependable breadwinner.

Although I feel empathetic I do feel that is putting a lot of responsibility of maintaining this relationship onto my shoulders. Anyways I just love my family too much. Will do as much as I can.

HE gets frustrated at the littlest of things. Yesterday he was sititng in the family room. My daughter tripped over heis laptop wire in an attempt to hug him, HE jsut screamed" God Damn it , you did not hurt did you?" Earlier I would have reacted to this outburst but I sat there calmly saying" She is OK Hon"

Today he confided in me this much " I don't know which direction I am going in right now, I need a lot of help anf support from you" I purposefully remained quiet so he would open up more, but that was it.

NAnny left today. I anticipate some transition stress but nothing that cannot be handled.

The Nanny left. Honestly I felt relief and peace because too often she was too loud for me. HE misses her more once said," The house looks so empty without her " Too often these two were quarrelling and I was the mediator.

I have hired parttime help. With that I am managing fine. He is at his laptop 5am and then back again at the laptop most of the evening. I pretty much do it as a single Mom would. His contriubution being " The Help" I mean being able to pay for 4 hrs of help a day. He has been insisting that I give this new helper more hrs so she does not look for more work. He believes taking care of kids and household is a mother's/wife's job and because I work too he has hired this help to compensate and is willing to get me as much hired help as I need.

Now as you guys might know my problems are gettting " emotional support" working for my home or kids does not bother me. I feel he is not part of "US" most of the time. So here's how it goes;

ME: When I am in the kitchen could you just be around or be talking to the kids?

Him: I don't feel good standing around in the kitchen. You are doing everything. I feel useless. I just played with them for a long time( 10 -15 min may be)

ME: Hon I don't need help in the kitchen, I just need your presence around me! The kids need you.

Him: I am stressed out Re; my business please don't criticize !!

Now that is what I don not understand any issues of Emotional distance or connectivity are seen as criticism. Beats me. Do they not see the need to connect emotionally? Is he afraid that I will reject him emotionally after all those years? Now physically he is extremely goodlooking(getting a little out of shape because of software lifestyle) People have told me he is betterlooking than me and " looks like a Movie star" HE thinks I am the one with the looks. And I love him for that.

He does have uncertainity re; his business and finances I know we will be fine, We have always been. But again I feel my need to connect emotionally increases during such times.

This feeds my self created belief that " Emotional connectivitty is to women what raw brainless sex would be to men"

Dr. Mom,

Of course I don't know you intimately, only from reading and following this thread of yours. So what I have to offer comes from the impression of you I am gathering from your time here at A2K.

That said, this is my general impression. It might help you, if you are willing to take it with a grain of salt and that my intention is good.

I feel, personally, that it is a fine line trying to speak to you. Here on-line.

I feel like my words need to be chosen so carefully; or they will likely be dismissed or ignored.

I feel like there is a lot of hostility, resentment, and unexpressed emotions going on with you - to the point that it influences your style even here online on a forum.

There is defensiveness, a good amount of blaming and finger pointing, subtle and not so subtle manipulation - that you may or may not be aware of.

I personally am a very upfront person. To the point of struggling with tact, oftentimes.

However, it strikes me the sheer hostility and dismissiveness you are projecting on here.

It's daunting - it feels not so great, frustrating - and it leads me to wonder if your husband is not perhaps distancing himself , at least in part, due to this?

I am not saying you are responsible for his behavior; but if you are doing something to contribute to it, and making it harder to breach the divide, wouldn't you want to know and work on it?

I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in guys who 'sure knows how to talk'. I thought this thread was about a specific concern of yours, your life, and talking with us - real people - not just bullshitting.

Take it as you will. I mean well.