Mid-East Roadmap, Is it working?

Craven de Kere wrote:

I think "All-Out War" is unlikely. One side has no army so to target their extremists Israel would have to target their population.

that does not seem as likely to deter the Sharon government as it might have his predecessors. Remember, Sharon is not averse to ordering massacres.

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hobit, We are all aware of what Sharon is capable of. After all, he was a 'freedom fighter' before he became the leader of Israel.

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I disagree. And if it came to that it would not have as much to do with sharon so much as the Israeli people getting sick of the conflcit and the terror hoisted upon them and taking an even harder line.

The people of Israel have shown to be willing to got much farther than sharon is currently willing.

sharon is actually holding his people back right now. Whooda thunk?

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Craven bee right. Sharon is milquetoasty in the view of many Israelis, who are probably tired of daily explosions. A couple of months ago, I was worried Sharon would be assassinated by his own people for giving too much to the peace process.

I found an article stating the Pals are asking the US to get over there and force a return to the truce. Now, I don't know about you guys--but the Pals asking for a return to a peace process with Israel isn't something I recall happening before. And, so incredibly soon after their side blew it, and suffered retaliation...?

Seems to me they may be concerned that Israel is about to rain hell down on them.

It seemed unusual, or uncharacteristic, to me.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/801833.asp?vts=82320032152

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Quote:

I disagree. And if it came to that it would not have as much to do with Sharon so much as the Israeli people getting sick of the conflict and the terror hoisted upon them and taking an even harder line.

Agreed. If the bombings continue it is likely that the Israeli people will reach a breaking point and those who urge restraint will become a minority. When that happens if it should who knows what may happen, will the Palestinian populations be safe? Consider if you lived in an area where there was a constant potential for death through terrorism what would your feelings be towards the perpetrators and their supporters. How long would you be restrained. At that point would you be looking for causes or justification. Your only interest would be in making it go away.
As for Sharon, remember that the election of Sharon was brought about by the intafada.In effect one could say Arafat and the Intafada elected Sharon.

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Hobitbob

Quote:

Sharon is not averse to ordering massacres.

So the Palestinians and the Arab world would like us to believe while they go around blowing up the innocents around the world.

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au1929 wrote:

Frank
I doubt that you are correct. Before Israel goes down and there is another holocaust the entire region will. Never again means never again. However, it will never come to that.

Once again you are equating the existence of the state of Israel in the Middle East -- with the continued existence of Jews in the world. That simply is not the case.

And I suspect the existence of Jews in the Middle East is not the problem either -- the problem is the existence of a JEWISH STATE.

Can't you disassociate the existence of the state of Israel in the Middle East from the existence of the Jewish people?

As far as I am concerned, the state of Israel can exist right where it is forever.

But anyone who thinks the state of Israel will exist there while there are still Arabs and Islamics living there also -- and that the setting will be anything even approaching a peaceful coexistence -- is in denial on a cosmic scale.

Obviously, it is not going to happen. I don't care if there are fences; separate states; or anything else.

But it is my desire that the United States either stay out of this thing completely -- or to stop this uneven intervention over there.

So, why are you saying I am not correct?

What part of that do you see as being incorrect?

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By the way, au, you wrote:

Quote:

Before Israel goes down and there is another holocaust the entire region will. Never again means never again. However, it will never come to that.

If by that you meant that you think Israel will take the whole Middle East with it if it is destroyed -- or if you meant that Israel will take the entire planet down with them if it comes to that -- then I agree with you.

I think they will do that.

In fact, I rather suspect that is what will be attempted.

I think we humans have not yet fought our last major world war -- and I think that final, ugly, perhaps fatal for humanity war will come as a result of Israel deciding either it continues to exist or the whole world dies with it.

That is one of the reasons I am advocating that the United States let everyone know that we will no longer be backing Israel (or anyone else in that region) NO MATTER WHAT!

Maybe the Israelis and the American Jews will finally learn they are not operating from the secure position they seem to think they are in right now with almost unquestioned American backing.

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Frank

Quote:

Once again you are equating the existence of the state of Israel in the Middle East -- with the continued existence of Jews in the world.

It is you who are equating the existence of Israel with the continued existence of Jews in the world. Both of which you would like to see disappear. How many times have you said I am not an anti-Semite even though no one said you were. "Frank Thou dost protest too much". Regarding whether IMO you are or are not an Anti-Semite I will keep that to my self and let your words speak for you.
The subject is the State of Israel and it's existence period. Nothing more noting less and whether the road map is or is not working.
As for what the Israeli's would or would not do if they were faced with another Holocaust I do not know. However if were an Israeli I know darn well what I would do and it would not to march like a sheep to the gas chamber.
As for whether there can be peaceful coexistence between Israel and it's neighbors actually in time I believe there will be.

Quote:

If by that you meant that you think Israel will take the whole Middle East with it if it is destroyed -- or if you meant that Israel will take the entire planet down with them if it comes to that -- then I agree with you.

I think they will do that.

I knew you would agree with that. The perfidious Jews are capable of anything. Who the hell are they to want to defend themselves.

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I have never seen anyhting from Frank to indicate he is anti-Semitic. Its comments like the ones you made above that make discussing this issue with you impossible. On every other subject you are capable of engaging in intelligent discussion, but this one. Rolling Eyes

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au's quote: " Both of which you would like to see disappear." That's going way over the top, au. I think you're better than that! c.i.

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In post after post Frank has protested he is not an
Anti-Semite. I have never seen anyone accuse him of being an Anti-Semite or indicate that he was. However, he usually states it as a preamble to Israel has no right to exist.
Why continue to preface that statement. Who the hell cares.
As to his thoughts on the the existance of Israel he has made that abundantly clear. As for the existance of Jews in general that is only my opinion based what I precieve.
P.S. To his point in all our discussions I had never brought up the subject.

C.I.
I calls them as I see them.

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Your comments about my being Arab don't exactly lift you above his (presumed) level, now do they.

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Hobitbob
That was primarily payback for the percy remark. However, you do I believe take the Arab position on terrorism. Equating Bus bombings with retaliatory strikes against the terrorists. However, in retrospect it should have been left unsaid

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I don't take the "Arab" side (whatever that is), I oppose the actions of BOTH sides. Neither side is correct.

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Hobitbob
Before this thread gets locked down. I would ask has not almost all if not all Israeli strikes and incursions come in response to a act of terror? If so what else could have been expected?

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au1929 wrote:

Hobitbob
Before this thread gets locked down. I would ask has not almost all if not all Israeli strikes and incursions come in response to a act of terror? If so what else could have been expected?

It depends on how far back you take the start to be. It also depends on whether your goal is victory or peace. They aren't the same thing. Neither side is overly careful over how many additional people die besides the stated "targets." Again I remind you of Rachel Corrie. What was she doing that justified her death? Both sides have adopted the "the only good ___ is a dead ___ philosophy."

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Since the Intafada began?
As for Rachel Corrie that was unfortunate however, I sure she must have known sticking herself in the middle of a conflict is asking for trouble.

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au1929 wrote:

Since the Intafada began?
As for Rachel Corrie that was unfortunate however, I sure she must have known sticking herself in the middile of a conflict is asking for trouble.

Too true...everyone who attempts to work for peace should expect to be run over with a bulldozer. Rolling Eyes

I'm not discussing this with you anymore. Good afternoon.

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well excuse me hobitbob, are you not aware of the USA "bulldozers for peace plan"? after all, its on the Road Map.

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Mid-East Roadmap, Is it working?

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