Mid-East Roadmap, Is it working?

cicerone imposter wrote:

Craven, You seek miracles where none exist! Territorial dispute IS the key issue which will never see the light of day, because removing expanded settlements is NOT the answer. c.i.

I know that territorial dispute is a key element. But nothing is stopping Isreal from unilateral withdrawal. If Isreal would end its settlers' aspirations for territorial expantion it would be a tremendous boon. Some of Israel's own policies in regard to security (such as the fence) are hampered by the Israelis who do not want to draw the line for fear that they will have to relinquish the dream of Greater Israel.

If Israel can kill that dream they can then pursue policy that will strengthen their security without dissent from within.

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Craven
I agree that Israel should abandon the settlements and complete the sucurity fence. However, I truly doubt that will end the conflict. IMO the goal is still the destruction of the state of Israel.

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au1929 wrote:

Craven
I agree that Israel should abandon the settlements and complete the sucurity fence. However, I truly doubt that will end the conflict. IMO the goal is still the destruction of the state of Israel.

I agree -- the security fence will not end the conflict.

I also think that creation of a state of Palestine will not end the conflict.

MY GUESS: The conflict CANNOT be ended while there is a state of Israel in the Middle East -- and there are any Arabs living there also.

Now...

...either Israel finally grasps that fact and stays there with the complete understanding that the situation right now is probably as "peaceful" as it is every going to get...or...

...Israel folds its tent and establishes itself somewhere else...or...

...the Israelis and the Arabs fight it out to the death.

Whichever they choose to do -- I will support.

The only thing I am interested in is for the country in which I live -- the United States of America -- NOT TO BE INVOLVED ON EITHER SIDE FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Israel claimed today that they have not abandoned the road map. Have they ever been on it? c.i.

Perhaps its folded wrong,and they can't see where they are going.....

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au1929 wrote:

Craven
I agree that Israel should abandon the settlements and complete the sucurity fence. However, I truly doubt that will end the conflict. IMO the goal is still the destruction of the state of Israel.

I agree. But if yours is a fair statement then it is also fair to say that Isreal's goal is to take Palestinian land.

I am advocating the total abdication of that goal and a unilateral withdrawal.

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au, Unfortunately there are people on both sides of that fence that wants the total destruction of the other. Where the right answer lies are problems for miracle workers. None exist at the present time. c.i.

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Craven

Quote:

I am advocating the total abdication of that goal and a unilateral withdrawal

.

Withdrawal to where, can they agree upon a border? I doubt it. The fence at least will assure that there will be no settlement activity beyond it. And that all those that were would be left unprotected and I would guess be abandoned.
Assuming that Israel were to abandon all disputed settlements and retreat to the Green Line do you honestly believe that will end the conflict. IMO not a chance for the reason previously stated. A peaceful solution in the area is simply a wet dream. IMO The Arabs do not want the state of Israel to continue to exist under any circumstance.

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au1929 wrote:

Withdrawal to where, can they agree upon a border?

Isreal won't like the idea too much but I think the borders the US would accept are fair.

au1929 wrote:

The fence at least will assure that there will be no settlement activity beyond it.

But the downside is that the fence already is an extention of Isreali land. The fence should be at the green line. This is a minor quibble, the fence doesn't deviate too drastically.

au1929 wrote:

And that all those that were would be left unprotected and I would guess be abandoned.

I'd hope so but those settlers don't think in terms that we easily understand.

au1929 wrote:

Assuming that Israel were to abandon all disputed settlements and retreat to the Green Line do you honestly believe that will end the conflict.

No, but it would be a good step to take and there is no reason (other than internal parties who want to hold out for Greater Isreal) that Isreal shouldn't do so.

In addition to the unilateral withdrawal I'd seal the border without exception until relations are normalized. If Isreal rights its wrongs and keeps to itself the Palestinian militants will loose a lot of hot air.

Will some still hate Isreal and seek to attack it? Sure! But they will not be nearly as effective and the conflict would be more like the conflict on Isreal's Northern border. There'd be more errant homeade rocket launching and less in way of bus bombs.

If the Palestinians are relegated to launching homemade rockets the Isreali death toll with drop by over 90%.

au1929 wrote:

IMO not a chance for the reason previously stated. A peaceful solution in the area is simply a wet dream. IMO The Arabs do not want the state of Israel to continue to exist under any circumstance.

I disagree with most of the pessimism and furthermore even if I were to agree with it it poses no solution other than each side trying to exterminate the other. Which would not be an improvement on the status quo.

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Craven

Quote:

If the Palestinians are relegated to launching homemade rockets the Israeli death toll with drop by over 90%

.

What do you suppose Israel would do if those rockets landed on a house full of Israeli citizens?
In addition how long would the rockets continue to be of the homemade variety. Your solution, not that I have a better one is simply a Band-Aid that would eventually become unglued.

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Isreal would retaliate. History indicates that the liklihood of a death tolls of the likes of the bus bombings are unlikely to ever happen by use of those homemade rockets.

As to them getting better weaponry history also indicates that it would be difficult for them.

Again, my posts here do not indicate all the ideas to combat the terror.

You call it just a bandaid while conceding that it'd reduce the death toll. That makes me wonder why there is opposition to these ideas.

Isreal has some obvious wrongs, they can br righted and at the same time reduce the death toll. Yet because it is not a final solution it's not a valid suggestion?

I am not yet talking about a end game. I'm talking about stemming the flow of blood. A bandaid is not a bad thing and can often aid the healing.

BTW, bandaids come unglued all the time. As long as the right things are done you can just slap another one on until the wound heals.

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Quote:

Palestinians Try to Halt Militant Attacks
RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) - Facing a fresh storm of violence, Palestinian leaders said Saturday they would try to broker a new halt to attacks by Islamic and other extremist groups and urged Israel to stop killing top militants. Chances for a new cease-fire looked dim, however, and top Palestinian officials said privately they were unable to stop what looked set to be an all-out war between Israel and Palestinian militants.

Is there a chance that the PA leaders will be successful in brokering a new cease fire. If not what do you think an all out war between the militants and Israel means. Will all restraints be off?

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au1929 wrote:

Quote:
Palestinians Try to Halt Militant Attacks
RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) - Facing a fresh storm of violence, Palestinian leaders said Saturday they would try to broker a new halt to attacks by Islamic and other extremist groups and urged Israel to stop killing top militants. Chances for a new cease-fire looked dim, however, and top Palestinian officials said privately they were unable to stop what looked set to be an all-out war between Israel and Palestinian militants.

Is there a chance that the PA leaders will be successful in brokering a new cease fire. If not what do you think an all out war between the militants and Israel means. Will all restraints be off?

If you mean with the United States backing Israel no matter what -- it probably means lots more hardship and suffering for the Palestinians and the Arabs.

If you mean with the United States doing the honorable and ethical thing -- staying out of the fray completely -- they there is going to be a huge fight with lots of ass kicking -- and I suspect at the end, the state of Israel will not exist any longer.

Which did you mean?

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In my own personal opinion the PA has never actually had much authority. So, in answer to au's question, I thinkt that this will turn into a full scale war between Israel and the Palestinians, and the short term result will be the decimation of the Palestinian regions. The long term effect may be serious diplomatic and trade trouble for Israel.

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Frank
I doubt that you are correct. Before Israel goes down and there is another holocaust the entire region will. Never again means never again. However, it will never come to that.

Hobitbob
Yours is the more likely scenerio. Which would be a disaster for both the Israeli's and the Palestinians.

Maybe it is time for the UN to step in and do something constructive. Is that a possibility? I wonder?

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au1929 wrote:

Frank
I doubt that you are correct. Before Israel goes down and there is another holocaust the entire region will. Never again means never again. However, it will never come to that.

Hobitbob
Yours is the more likely scenerio. Which would be a disaster for both the Israeli's and the Palestinians.

Maybe it is time for the UN to step in and do something constructive. Is that a possibility? I wonder?

Considering the US under Bush is likely to retaliate against anyone who attacks ISrael,and would not surprise me by commiting US troops to fight in the ISraeli side, I doubt the UN wil be able to do much. It is looking like the evangelicals will get their "river'o'blood," sooner rather than later. I doubt it will bring their desired result. Somehow, despite the hot air in both, I don't see Bush or Ashcroft (or Delay for that matter) wafting skywards naked as a likely possibility. Rolling Eyes

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Hobitbob
Will 72 virgins help to send them on their way. Hell not an inducement for Bush.

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Can we please get away from the "72 virgins" bovine residue? It is a misreading of a mistranslation, and drags the diuscussion back to the "you're an idiot becasue you are an Arab territory." You are more intelligent than that, I think.

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Hobitbob
Sorry, should have realized it would touch a nerve.
,

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hobitbob wrote:

In my own personal opinion the PA has never actually had much authority. So, in answer to au's question, I thinkt that this will turn into a full scale war between Israel and the Palestinians, and the short term result will be the decimation of the Palestinian regions. The long term effect may be serious diplomatic and trade trouble for Israel.

After the bus bombing, I felt the same way, hobitbob. I don't think its going to be very long before there is a significant spell of fighting, if not full-out war. And, I agree with your summation of the results.

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I think "All-Out War" is unlikely. One side has no army so to target their extremists Israel would have to target their population.

Bold declarations like "If they don't dismantle the terrorist infrastructure we will" aside, there is not much Isreal can do that they haven't already tried without using ethnic cleansing.

It'll be more of the same ole same ole. There will be spikes in terror, there will be incursions by Israel.

And more innocent Arabs will die than Israelis.

Those seem to be the only rules in this that don;t change.

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Mid-East Roadmap, Is it working?

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