Mid-East Roadmap, Is it working?

The return of the Golan heights is an issue between Israel and Syria not Palestinian statehood or the road map.

Agreed. But it is related in that it is just another example of Isreal refusing (for whatever reason) to return land that they have stolen and are occupying.

It is another example of Israel's actions that cause animosity in the region.

If Israel want's full normalization with it's neighbours it will have to return the land it took from them.

If the national survival and prevention of massacre are put at stake, nothing can be more important than this. Syria has lost the Golan Heights as a result of its attempt to eliminate Israel in 1967. It was punished for such an attempt by means of loss of strategically significant part of its territory. Just like Germany lost Königsberg as a result of its starting aggressive war against the USSR and having lost it. I have never met here any posts calling Russia to return Königsberg to its legitimate owner, despite of the fact that national survival of Russia is not endangered if the German sovereignty over this city is restored.

Craven



Do you believe that will bring peace to the region? I would submit that as far as their Arab neighbors are concerned the entire state of Israel is on, as you put it, "stolen land". IMO The return of the Golan heights would be the height of folly.

Massacre is overused as an excuse. Dire predictions are often used as pretexts for whatever strikes one's fancy.

Golan is land that Israel does not have justified claim to and when the will of the international community (including the US) is finally acknowledged by Israel they will have to return much of the land they have taken and occupied.

Königsberg is not related. If catching all criminals was the prerequisite for society precluding individual acts of crime then criminality would reign.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

More important to me is the question of whether I should care. The viability of any peace plan is no excuse for Isreal's wrongdoings.

I have said it time and time again. Israel is the strongest nation in the region by far. They are not a weak and vulnerable nation in terms of their existence. The tired old saw about their existence is a pretext used to delay Israel's compliance with international law.

The fact that the neighbours don't like tehm and that they have had neighbours who tried to burgalarize them does not give them free reign to occupy any house they want in the neighbourhood.

Isreal is occupying land they took through violence and using the violence of others as a pretext.

Craven


That is easy to say sitting here safe and sound. Would you feel that way if you were an Israeli. Since when is it the right thing to put yourself in jeopardy?

au,

It's also easy to argue that the very fact that Isreal is willing to occupy land that they do not own puts them in jeopardy.

I do not believe that the land Israel occupies affords them any significant security and I do believe that it endangers them.

I think you are forgetting why Israel exists. Massacre. The dire predictions are based on history.

Seven more killed at a busstop today.

Pereat mundus, fiat justitia. If Israel complies with requirements of the international law that no other country complies with, and this leads to its military defeat and slaughter of 5.5 million of its Jewish citizens, it will be possible to condemn the Arab leaders in violation of the international law. But this will not be too much helpful to the deceased.

Sofia,

I personally think the history in this particular case should not be used as a supporting argument for Israeli occupation. IMO, it demeans the history because IMO its use in that setting is a pretext.

steissd,

I'd love to see you defend the notion that if Israel were to end their occupation of land they do not own they would all die.

IMO that is a feckless prediction with no basis in reality.

never.

The "never" mindset on both sides will be the bait that feeds the killings.

Steissd

I appreciate that fact that you saw something worthwhile in what I said, but you have misinterpreted my sentiment.

Before I get into that, though, I want to assure you that I am, as are most reasonable people, filled with sadness that the people living in the Middle East are so inexorably antagonistic to one another. I would love to see everyone over there living in peace and harmony.

But I just don't see it happening.

My statement was:



Note that I do not think the problem is that Jews live there with Arabs. Nor do I suppose that Arabs will not tolerate non-Arabs in the area.

As I see it, the problem, as far as the Arabs are concerned, is with the existence of the state of Israel.

A significant portion of what was once just the Middle East -- is now the state of Israel -- and that does not sit well with the Arabs over there -- AND NEVER WILL. They think they have as much right to the land as do the Jews.

Creation of a state of Palestine is not going to do the job.

MY GUESS: If the state of Israel had never been created, Jews and Arabs would be living in the Middle East in relative harmony -- at least, relative to what is the case right now.

Said another way: I do not think the Arabs are saying that the Jews have to go -- but that the state of Israel has to go.

And it is my opinion that unless you folks can get rid of every Arab in the Middle East -- the only solution to this problem is for the state of Israel to go out of existence.

I do not think that is going to happen.

I think the state of Israel will stay right where it is -- and I think Arab extremists will continue to do what they are doing now AND THEN SOME.

I also think that American presidents and the American congress will continue to pretend an objectivity in the matter that simply does not exist -- and will be dealing with this problem on into the indefinite future.

Unless of course, this nonsense finally blows up and the entire world is thrown into another major war -- and perhaps enough of humanity will be destroyed so that there will be no American president or American congress to continue the folly.

If there was no state of Israel, there would be no reason at all for the Jews to stay in the Middle East. It is not so much an attractive place despite of abundance of oil there.
OK, but is there any country in the world ready to issue 5.5 million green cards in exchange for elimination of the State of Israel? Not only to valuable professionals, but to all the non-Arab citizens. This is the only way to prevent recurrence of the Holocaust. I doubt so. Hence, there is no solution of the problem, except ability of Israel to prevent a major Arab aggression.

Frank, That's only if this president doesn't destroy America first; he's doing a yeoman's job for only three years. His last year may be the climax.

steissd,

To counter your claims that all the Israelis would be massacred I post the following:

I say they will not.

Now we are even, you preach massacre and I preach that it's nonsense.

Thing is, I wasn't asking you to repeat your dire prediction but rather to substantiate it. I already made very clear that I do not take your word for it (in fact I consider it laughable) and to substantiate your word you only use.. your word again.

You say nothing of the greatest deterrent (nukes) and you say nothing of what America is supposed to be doing while that "massacre" is going on.

You also fail to mention Syria's pitiful military and that even without Golan the IDF would make short work of them.

You mention Israel's favorite excuse to steal land, that it is needed to give territorial depth for the sake of security. While I am off securing my neighbours homes for my security I would like to mention that the standards for armed conflict have changed and that the IDF's overwhelming air superiority, their possesion of nuclear weapons and their alliance with the US makes any talk of one of their neighbours "massacring" all Israelis sound very very outlandish.

P.S. You fail to note that in the past, Israel was not as distanced in military superiority and that Israel managed to prevent such "massacres" without the stolen land.