Mid-East Roadmap, Is it working?

Gee, how careless of me. I'm sure everyone will feel re-assured knowing that thois killed by Israeli collateral damage are to blame for their own deaths. How dare they exist, not being Israeli. Do you really believe this sort of nonsense? Do you extend this metaphor to its logical conclusion that those Israelis who have died are dead through their own fault as well?

Stressid, I'm sorry you were shot at in Afghanistan. However, read the article, and look at some of the history of the Arab/Israeli conflict. Not everyone who is killed on either side is a "terrorist." You are employing the same (lack of) reasoning seen here in the US by those who insist that Afghan and Iraqi civilian deaths were not really that bad, since some of those dead were likely "terrorists." You and Archbishop Arnald Amalric would have gotten along swimmingly.

hehehe!

Hobitbob.
The Hizbollah firing into Israel is unprovoked. Hizbollah, you are familiar with that terrorist organization? Or should I ask if you believe it is a terrorist organization? In any event what do you think the Israeli's should do turn the other cheek?

Hobitbob
Perhaps I did not missread after all.


Aug. 10, 2003
Victim of Hizbullah terror shelling laid to rest
By DAVID RUDGE

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Haviv Dadon, 16, the first Israeli civilian to be killed as a direct result of Hizbullah shelling since the IDF's withdrawal from south Lebanon in May 2000, was laid to rest inn the cemetery of his home town, Shlomi, on Sunday night.

Hundreds of people attended the funeral of the teenager who was killed in the early afternoon by a so-called anti-aircraft shell that exploded two meters from where he was eating bread roll after finishing part time cleaning and maintenance work for the local council.

Dadon, who is survived by his parents and five brothers and sisters, was with a group of friends sitting on steps opposite the commercial center in the heart of the Western Galilee township when the Hizbullah salvo struck.

He was hit in the chest and limbs by shrapnel. Resuscitation efforts by Magen David Adom paramedics, who reached the scene in minutes, proved in vain and he was pronounced dead at the scene. Another teenager was wounded and three other people were lightly hurt and several more, including Dadon's parents, had to be treated for shock.

"He was a flower of a boy, a real flower. Why did they kill him. Why did they take him away from me," cried his mother, Miriam, clutching a photograph of her son.

"You can't say you are used to this firing, because you don't know when or where it will fall. Everybody is frightened," Haviv's brother Meir Dadon told reporters.

"There was somebody wounded three weeks ago and nobody come. Let's see what will be done now that Haviv has been killed," he said.

Shlomi council head Gabriel Na'aman told Jerusalem Post that the council had a program for teenagers who wanted to earn some pocket money and help their families during the summer vacation.

He said that Dadon and several others took part in the program, which primarily involved helping with cleaning and maintenance work.

"Haviv was born and raised here. His family is one of the veteran families in Shlomi. They came here in 1956. The father recently had major surgery. They have had welfare problems and now they are having to bury a son," said Na'aman.

"Shlomi is only a small place with some 6,000 residents and where virtually everyone knows one another. This is a terrible blow for all of us.

"It is made worse by the fact that we have been constantly warning that something like this could happen unless something was done about the Hizbullah firing," he said.

"There have been some 35 incidents of so-called anti-aircraft firing over Shlomi - around 180 shells have been fired in total - but the Prime Minister and Defense Minister have simply ingored my calls and those of the forum of confrontation line communities."

Although, Dadon is the first civilian to be killed directly by Hizbullah shelling, but not the first fatality since the IDF's withdrawal in May 2000.

In fact, 10 Israelis had been killed previously in various operations emanating from Lebanon, in addition to the three soldiers, St.-Sgts. Benny Avraham, Omar Suwayeed and Adi Avitan, who were kidnapped in a Hizbullah ambush in the Mount Dov region in October 2000.

An IDF officer and five civilians were killed in an ambush near Kibbutz Matzuva, on the Kabri to Shlomi road, in March last year by two terrorists who infilrated from Lebanon. Four other soldiers were killed in attacks by Hizbullah in the Mount Dov region in intervening years and dozens of soldiers and civilians have been wounded by Hizbullah cross-border firing.
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Hobitbob
Aug. 10, 2003
IDF confirms destroying Hizbullah firing position
By THE JERUSALEM POST INTERNET STAFF

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The Israel Defense Forces has released a statement on today's Hezbollah cross-border terror attack confirming that IAF aircraft entered the western sector of Lebanese territory and destroyed the cannon position from where the Hezbollah was firing into Israel.

The Hizbollah terror attack killed a 16-year-old Israeli boy and injured four others.

"Our pilots reported destroying the cannon and the position," the IDF reported. "Hezbollah fired
shells under the guise of anti aircraft fire, when in fact there were no Israeli aircrafts that crossed the border into Lebanon."

The IDF announcement added: "These terror attacks against Israel by Hezbollah, with Syrian backing, are in violation of UN resolution 425, according to which Israel completely fulfilled its part in redeploying its' forces from Lebanon. Whereas Syria and the Hezbollah systematically violate the resolution and deliberately strike at the state of Israel."

"The IDF views very seriously these terrorist attacks against cities and towns in northern Israel. The IDF will firmly act against all those who carry out terrorist attacks or support terrorism against the state of Israel."

Unprovoked. a strange definintion of "overflights by IAF aircraft."
Yes, I am familiar with Hezbollah. I am also aware that they and Hammas are both guilty of promulgating terrorist actions. What I do not understand is how the fact that the IDF often kills Palestinian civilians while it is supposedly "surgically removing" terrorists becomes an excusable occurrance. I am sure that many civilians, both Palestinian and, now, Lebanese will be killed by the Israelis in return for the shelling of an Israeli settlement.
Would I like to see Israel"turn the other cheek?" I would like to see a cease fire. I would like to see Sharon and his thugs, and Arafat and his goons in jail. I would like to see Tom Delay and all of the other "born-again" crazies forced to do service in the ED of a hospital where both Palestinian and Israeli terrorvictims are treated. maybe then they will see that this conflict produces no winners, only losers. Neither side are wearing "white hats."
I personally feel that the blood of the Palestinian victims of Israeli oppression is on my hands as well as those of evrey other American, becasue our tax dollars finance this killing.
That is how I feel.

I misread the article. That does not change my position of the terror tactics of the IDF. Besides which, according to Stressid, we should be glad the boy was killed. He might have turned out to be a terrorist!

Maj.-Gen. Gilad: "Black Days Ahead from Hizbullah"
11:52 Aug. 11, '03 / 13 Av 5763


Maj.-Gen. Amos Gilad, IDF Coordinator of Activities in Yesha and the head of the political-security desk in the Defense Ministry, made some strong statements today about the threat from Hizbullah and Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon. "The black predictions when we withdrew from Lebanon three years ago turned out to be rather optimistic," Gilad said. Three straight days of Hizbullah attacks against Israel led to the death of 16-year-old Haviv Dadon in the northern town of Shlomi yesterday.

Gilad said that Hizbullah currently holds three times as many katyusha rocket launchers as it did three years ago, and that they are designed to threaten Israel's northern communities. "Hizbullah's involvement in terror attacks in Yesha and within the Green Line exacted a much higher price than that which we paid when we were still in Lebanon," said Gen. Gilad. He mentioned in this connection the attack in southern Tel Aviv earlier this year that claimed 23 lives. On Jan. 5, 2003, 15 Israelis and 8 foreign workers were killed, and over 170 people were wounded, when two terrorists blew themselves up 30 seconds and one block apart. Fatah claimed responsibility at the time - but Gen. Gilad said today that Hizbullah was heavily involved as well.

Israel responded to yesterday's attack with an air raid in Lebanon. This is not expected to be the sum total of Israel's response, but restraint will be observed.

IDF Northern Command O.C. Gen. Benny Ganz will meet today with northern community leaders, who will demand a significant IDF response against Hizbullah and Syria. The National Union party calls upon the government, of which it is a member, to impose a naval siege on Lebanon until it disarms the Hizbullah terrorists. Party leader Transportation Minister Avigdor Lieberman said this morning that Israel must present Syria and Lebanon with a 24-hour ultimatum. "Israel must gather the ambassadors of the US, Russia and the EU and [say that] if the Hizbullah fails to remove its missiles [from within range of Israel], every Syrian target in Lebanon will be annihilated. And if rockets fall on Shlomi, all the residents of Beirut must be sent into bomb shelters, because the land of Lebanon will burn.

Residents of the north plan to protest the worsening security situation by darkening their homes for one hour beginning at 8 PM tonight. They will also not begin the school year 19 days from now as planned until they are satisfied that the pupils will be protected from Hizbullah threats. One of yesterday's Hizbullah missiles landed in an empty kindergarten. The decisions were made last night at a special meeting of the Forum of Front Line Communities.

This should be posted under Jokes. However_____



A last wish

Dan Rather, Jesse Jackson, Cokie Roberts, and an Israeli soldier were hiking through the jungle one day when cannibals captured them. They were tied up, led to the village, and brought before the chief.



The chief said, "I am familiar with your western custom of granting the condemned a last wish. Before we kill and eat you, do you have any last requests?"



Dan Rather said, "Well, I'm a Texan, so I'd like one last bowlful of hot, spicy chili." The chief nodded to an underling who left and returned with the chili. Rather ate it all and said, "Now I can die content."



Jesse Jackson said, "You know, the thing in this life I am proudest of is my work on behalf of the poor and oppressed. So before I go, I want to sing "We Shall Overcome" one last time." The chief said, "Go right ahead, we're listening." Jackson sang the song, and then said; "Now I can die in peace."



Cokie Roberts said, "I'm a reporter to the end. I want to take out my tape recorder and describe the scene here and what's about to happen. Maybe someday someone will hear it and know that I was on the job until the end."



The chief directed an aide to hand over the tape recorder, and Roberts dictated some comments. She then said, "Now I can die happy."



The chief then said, "And, Mr. Israeli soldier, what is your final wish?" "Kick me in the ass," said the Israeli.



"What?" said the chief? "Will you mock us in your last hour?"



"No, I'm not kidding. I want you to kick me in the ass," insisted the Israeli. So the chief untied the soldier, shoved him into the open, and kicked him in the ass. The Israeli went sprawling, but rolled to his knees, pulled a 9mm pistol from his waistband, and shot the chief dead. In the resulting confusion, he leapt to his knapsack, pulled out his Uzi, and sprayed the cannibals with gunfire. In a flash, the cannibals were all dead or fleeing for their lives.



As the Israeli was untying the others, they each asked him, "Why did you ask the chief to kick you in the ass? Why didn't you just shoot them?"



"What?" exclaimed the Israeli? "And risk having YOU schmucks call ME the aggressor!!!"

Here is your roadmap to peace. As long as the PA has no control over the terrorist elements there can be no peace.

Jerusalem suicide bomb kills 20, including children
Tuesday, August 19, 2003 Posted: 3:35 PM EDT (1935 GMT)

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- A powerful suicide bombing aboard a Jerusalem bus killed 20 people, children among them, and wounded more than 80 others, rescue workers and police said Tuesday night.

"We do have dead and there are definitely wounded," Israeli police spokesman Gil Kleiman said. "Among the dead are children," he said.

Ambulance services said at least 30 people had been carried away from the scene. An Israeli spokesman said 26 people were seriously and critically injured in the bombing of the double-car bus in the French Hill section of Jerusalem. Another 43 people sustained minor injuries.

A statement from the Israeli Foreign Ministry said the bus was carrying children on their way back from a visit to Jerusalem's Western Wall.

The bomb exploded aboard a double-length city bus shortly after 9 p.m. in the crowded, largely ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighborhood of Mea Shearim near the border between east and west Jerusalem. The explosion damaged a second bus, Kleiman said.

Video of the scene showed metal and glass protruding from the bus that exploded and children streaked in blood sitting in ambulances and lying in the arms of adults.

The bombing is the worst attack since three major Palestinian militant groups -- Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades -- announced a cease-fire June 29.

The U.S. State Department has designated Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades as terrorist organizations.

Since then there has been continued low-level violence but only occasional suicide bomb attacks.

Tuesday's bus bombing comes when the peace process is already under strain.

Last week Israel killed a leader of Islamic Jihad which it said was planning attacks on Israelis but Islamic Jihad called on its members to respond in any way possible to the killing.

au,

News Flash: the PA has little to no control over the terrorists.

I also think there is little to no possibility of them changing that anytime soon. I disagree that we should let that sad fact spell doom for peace.

Craven
That is and has been quite obvious. Disarming of the militants was supposed to be step one on the road map. Without that control the roadmap is doomed to failure.

I think the greater threat to the process is posed by those willing and in some cases eager to accept it's failure based on unrealistic benchmarks.

In reading about the recent bombing in Jerusalem I was struck by this one line.



My reaction to that is that they should make those people feel what it is like by droping a few bombs in their populaton centers.

And thus continuing the cycle of violence. Not a good idea.

hobitbob
Did I say it was a good Idea? That was my reaction to the bombing. The contention is and has been that the terrorists not the man in the street are responsible for the bombings. That is hogwash. Time and time again the man on the Arab street has voiced support and approval for these atrocities. The friend of my enemy is my enemy. They are just as responsible for the bombings as those carrying them out. And should be treated as such. Blowing up a house does not seem to be a fair exchange.

au, Unfortunately, the "roadmap" will not work, because there are extremists on both sides. The Palestinians continue to encourage suicide bombings, and there are Israeli's who will not move out of many of the new settlements. There are too many on both sides that believe that the other side is out to remove them permanently from Israel. Until that changes, nothing will. c.i.

C.I
Yes there are extremists on either side. However, IMO Israel can, has and will take action against Israeli extremists while the Arabs support and cheer theirs on.

The Israeli extremists are in power at the moment (Sharon, anyone?).

hobitbob
In what way is Sharon an extremist. If he were the bombing I spoke of surely would have happened. I keep hearing the same tired old line. IMO this cease fire is only being used by the PA and Arafat,Yes Arafat is still in command, to strengnhten and refurbish the wheels of terrorism.