Perhaps the true question is: does one wish for peace between Israel and the palestinians, or victory fro one of the two sides? Many of us couldn't give an aviating rodent's rump for victory, what we want is peace. Peace is problematic. "Big doggys" from both sides must voluntarily relinquish power, and I don't know of any successful politicians who are willing to do that. There are also too many other groups with vested interest in the continuation of teh conflict.
The Evangelicals, who need their "river of blood," so that they can ahve their apocalypse.
The Saudis, who contribute money for the bomber's families, as an effrot to build their prestige in the region, and as a way to deflect attention from their own doing at home.
Radical Islamic leaders in Syrai, Lebanon, etc..., who see the conflict as a way to increase their personal power.
The "hard-liners" in Israel, who see that the constant threat of terrorism is easy justification for their desires to expand and increase the settlements.
Some (not all) settlers, who want more land.
The ones who are squeezed in the middle are the Palestinians and the Israeli settlers. The Settlers have no desire to leave lives they ahev worked very hard to develop, and rightly resent any plan that would call for them to leave what they have built. The Palestinians are increasingly marginalized and dehumanized by the hard liners, which makes for ripe recruiting ground for the terrorist leaders. Remember, the leaders don't do the killing.
au1929 wrote:Hobit
When stupidity takes over so does sarcasim.
I should note unless you have a lack of understanding it's the target that makes all the difference. Being an Arab that probably makes little difference to you.
Au, you are out of line. I'm walking away from the keyboard for a while. Perhaps you might wish to do the same.
hobitbob
Pehaps I had better. The bile is in my throat and it's beginning to fester.
au1929 wrote:Hobit
When stupidity takes over so does sarcasim.
I should note unless you have a lack of understanding it's the target that makes all the difference. Being an Arab that probably makes little difference to you.
Does the target make much difference to the dead and injured?
I see the point you are making - but calling strikes surgical and suchlike does not make non-involved folk any less injured and dead.
I shall leave the comment about being an Arab to the judgment of others, and your own, later, I hope, Au.
Is it especially helpful to demonize one side, or the other?
dlowan, You're pretty smart for a wabbit.
Sort'a like our 'smart bombs.' A oxymoron if I ever heard of one. c.i.
Just because, I shall forward that AU has been characterised as a Jew here. It does tend to neutralise one's opinion to some others, whether that is fair or not.
I didn't like it when it was done to au, and it sounded icky when it was done to hobitbob, as well.
Well, to be fair, I would probably rather live in a city under attack from "smart bombs" than one in the midst of a full blown terror campaign! The whole point of terror is its indiscriminateness and unpredictability.
I guess the awful entrenchedness of the conflict, and the level of emotional charge it carries, as opposed to the ability to remain rational in the face of its awfulness, is illustrated by someone like Sofia using a phrase like "Pal(estinian) lover". Kinda reminds me something, that phrase.
If I had my druthers, I'd rather live in a city with no bombing - ever!
Sure, CI, but - I wish you luck!
We have had 'em here - even in li'l old Adelaide, at the bottom of a globally insignificant country - and we can expect more, since our involvement in East Timor, and Iraq.
I hope, dlowan, you don't view my use of Jew-lover and Pal-lover negatively. I meant them literally. There was no negative connotation.
21 August 2003 IDF Spokesperson Announcement
The suicide bomber and two accomplices were arrested, and a 10 kg
explosive device seized.
Three Islamic Jihad operatives planning to carry out a suicide attack
in Haifa were arrested Tuesday (19 August 2003), during an IDF
operation near Araba, southwest of Jenin. Among those arrested were a
potential suicide bomber, his driver and an additional person
appointed to lead the bomber to his destination.
During the operation, two vehicles were seized and three suspects
arrested: Amar Subhi Abed Othman- the potential suicide bomber, born
1977, from Silat El Dahr. Mohammed Daoud Mohammed Tehaine-
responsible for leading the mission, born 1974, from Silat El
Hartiya, a former Islamic Jihad operative and a former prisoner.
Ashraf Tissir Said Halil- the bombers' driver, born 1973 from Anin,
an Islamic Jihad operative.
During his interrogation, Amar Othman said that he was on his way to
carrying out a suicide attack in Israel. He also gave the name of his
operator, Bashar Hassin Fares Shuhana, born 1972, an Islamic Jihad
operative from Silat El Hartuya, a former prisoner who was released
in March 2003 after two years in Israeli prison for taking part in
terror activities as part of the Islamic Jihad.
Following Othman's interrogation, Shuhana, his operator, was arrested
on the night of August 19. Othman also named Mohammed Tehaine and
Ashraf Halil as accomplices in planning the attack.
Following Tehaine's interrogation, an explosive device was discovered
on Wednesday, August 20 2003. The device, weighing 10 kg, was made of
makeshift explosives including fragmentations. The device, found near
Araba, was to be used by Othman to carry out the suicide attack
Should Israel go after the accomplices and all others connected to the attempted bombing which of course they will. Would it be justified?
"Should Israel go after the accomplices and all others connected to the attempted bombing which of course they will. Would it be justified?"
Yes, if done in a court of law. Not in bloody vengeance.
AU, can you re-post, or link to, your CNN article on the motivation of the suicide bombers?
I also recall a segment on 60 minutes with a Palestinian psychologist who spoke about teh psychological profile of suicide bombers,and included an interview with an unsuccessful one, who is now in jail. The length to which these kids (which most of them are) haev bought into a faulty system of beliefs, one that I might add is contradicted by the actual writing sin teh Koran adn Hadith, is frightening. Again, I see this a a class issue, where a small group of elites have manipulated middle and lower class youth into a nihilistic love of destruction.
Sofia wrote:Just because, I shall forward that AU has been characterised as a Jew here.
Where? I must have missed it.
BTW, I AM an Arab. I have no horns, no forked tail (although I would like a tail...imagine how helpful a tail would be....), I bathe regularly, I don't eat infants (have you seen how high in fat they are...??...), I don't ravish Christian virgins(uless they want me to...),and I have no desire to kill Jews, Christians, or Martians. The only Jihad I am embarked upon is the effort to avoid the inevitable wastline-thickening that has crept up on me since age 30.
End of Hudna: Rockets and Mortar Shells at Gush Katif and Sderot
14:52 Aug 22, '03 / 24 Av 5763
More signs that the hudna has officially ended: Over 15 mortar shells were launched at Gush Katif communities on Israel's southern Mediterranean coast, and six Kassam rockets were fired at Sderot and nearby communities, since last night.
No one was hurt in any of these attacks, but two homes in Sderot and Katif were directly hit. In addition, Arabs fired more than once against IDF soldiers in Gaza, a bomb was discovered and neutralized in Shechem, and at least two cars were stoned in the Shomron.
For at least the fourth time in a year and a half, the IDF divided Gaza into three parts this morning. The army re-installed two checkpoints along a main route, thus preventing terrorists from traveling freely between Rafiach in the south - where large amounts of weapons and ammunition are smuggled in from Egypt - and central and northern Gaza. Salah A-Din St., which was opened only last month in the framework of Israel's Road Map concessions, was once again closed. Near Netzarim, too, a recently-opened road was blocked off.
Military sources said this morning that large IDF forces may soon enter Gaza with the objective of destroying the smuggling tunnels in Rafiach. Other forces are on the alert to enter northern Gaza to put an end to the Kassam rockets. Israeli forces arrested 15 wanted terrorist suspects in Yesha last night.
The only current diplomatic contacts are those of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's advisor Osama El-Baz, who arrived in Israel today. He will meet first with Arafat and Abu Mazen, and then with Israeli Foreign Minister Shalom, in an effort to revive the hudna - although it has officially been declared dead by all the participating terrorist organizations. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Al-Aksa Brigades have said that they are now "free" to attack Israel.
IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Yaalon said that within the coming days we will know whether we are headed towards an escalation of violence or not.
Ya know, when I suggest sealing the border oddly enough people think it's too extreme a sanction on Palestinians. In the upcoming weeks in which Palestinian terrorists will muder Israelis and the IDF will use gross negligence and kill even more Palestinians I hope you guys keep the sealed border idea in mind. Sure it'd be hard on Palestinians. But what is coming is going to be as well.
And it has been going on for years.
Isreal needs to take the territorial dispute out of this equation. Unilateral withdrawal now.
Craven, You seek miracles where none exist! Territorial dispute IS the key issue which will never see the light of day, because removing expanded settlements is NOT the answer. c.i.
Israel claimed today that they have not abandoned the road map. Have they ever been on it? c.i.
