Let's discuss the minimum wage

Not just some jobs - a huge number of labor-oriented jobs are indexed to the minimum wage. Removing the minimum wage gives those same workers the ability to argue that their jobs are worth far more.

If the minimum wage laws were repealed, and a consortium of restaurants in a city agreed to drop their pay for cooks and dishwashers by 3 dollars an hour, what would all those people do? Quit and look for other employment? Most people can't afford to quit their jobs and go months looking for a new one, especially if there's extra pressure on the market caused by many others quitting. It would be a disaster.

I think minimum wage says: everyone's contribution is important. Here's the absolute least that we think is okay to pay somebody for doing work for you. Even if you don't think their job is as important as others, it's still important enough that the person should be able to scrape by in our society by doing their job.

There's also the inflation question: if the lowest wages (typically taken by unskilled workers) don't raise with inflation, then the poorest people in society become that much poorer....

[quote="Cycloptichorn]Not just some jobs - a huge number of labor-oriented jobs are indexed to the minimum wage. Removing the minimum wage gives those same workers the ability to argue that their jobs are worth far more.

If the minimum wage laws were repealed, and a consortium of restaurants in a city agreed to drop their pay for cooks and dishwashers by 3 dollars an hour, what would all those people do? Quit and look for other employment? Most people can't afford to quit their jobs and go months looking for a new one, especially if there's extra pressure on the market caused by many others quitting. It would be a disaster.

I think minimum wage says: everyone's contribution is important. Here's the absolute least that we think is okay to pay somebody for doing work for you. Even if you don't think their job is as important as others, it's still important enough that the person should be able to scrape by in our society by doing their job.

There's also the inflation question: if the lowest wages (typically taken by unskilled workers) don't raise with inflation, then the poorest people in society become that much poorer....

Cycloptichorn wrote:

So, without minimum wage laws, employers would be forced to pay minimum wage due to a lack of people trying to get the low-paying jobs?

Yes, I've seen that in action. Back when the minimum wage was $3.85, McDonald's in the Northeast were paying $6.50. Fast food couldn't attract workers at minimum wage. Even down South where I grew up, different fast food chains would offer higher starting salaries to improve the quality of their employee pool.

Some of you act as if raising the minimum wage actively improves people's lives to a great degree; I'd say it's a lot more of a case of making someone's life a little less shitty.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Some of you act as if raising the minimum wage actively improves people's lives to a great degree; I'd say it's a lot more of a case of making someone's life a little less shitty.

Again, though, is it the right way to make someone's life a little less shitty?

Can you give us a good reason for the minimum wage that can't be accomplished better another way?

You can index the minimum wage to inflation, yes. It doesn't reflect anyone demanding more money 'just because.' It reflects the fact that money is worth less, and therefore in order to maintain bare minimum standards of living, we need to set that minimum up a little higher then before.

Bookmark. I can't say anything profound at the moment because I have a fever. But this promises to become a very interesting thread.

Quote:

You can index the minimum wage to inflation, yes. It doesn't reflect anyone demanding more money 'just because.' It reflects the fact that money is worth less, and therefore in order to maintain bare minimum standards of living, we need to set that minimum up a little higher then before.

So why is the money worth less? Money doesn't naturally drop in value. The dollar rose in value throughout the late 90's and early 00's. Wal Mart claims (with limited validity) that they're driving down prices. From the employer's point of view, we should pay workers more because they are more productive, more knowledgable or contribute more than they did the year before. If those things are not true, why should the pay get higher?

What other ways? I need suggestions on what you would be proposing to make literally millions of people's lives better, more so then a 15-20% increase in their low paychecks.

Also, plz give details on how much money it will cost to implement the plan for the American taxpayer; the minimum wage increase doesn't cost the American taxpayer anything at all. It's been shown many times that minimum wage increases don't raise the prices of goods for the consumer significantly....

Cycloptichorn

The Minimum wage exists as an arbitrary low point for pay,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

What other ways? I need suggestions on what you would be proposing to make literally millions of people's lives better, more so then a 15-20% increase in their low paychecks.

Also, plz give details on how much money it will cost to implement the plan for the American taxpayer; the minimum wage increase doesn't cost the American taxpayer anything at all. It's been shown many times that minimum wage increases don't raise the prices of goods for the consumer significantly....

Cycloptichorn

What about the unequal effect of the minimum wage on some employers?

What about the blackmarket economy in sub-minimum wage jobs? How much tax revenue is lost because income isn't reported, and income tax and social security are not paid on these under-the-table deals?

Wanna give the poor a boost? Do it at the same way income tax is collected, but reverse it. Set a minimum income, take away one dollar for every two dollars someone earns. People have an incentive to work, and nobody starves.

DrewDad wrote:

What about the unequal effect of the minimum wage on some employers?

I wasn't aware that this was a significant problem. Can you link to evidence of this? It seems to me that there are many, many businesses who make great profits by paying their employees as little as possible. We aren't overloaded with good jobs here in America, so many people - especially those of limited intelligence, who can't get a better education as they are simply incapable of doing it - have no choice but to accept those low-paying jobs. I have no pity for the costs going up for these employers.

Drewdad wrote:

What about the blackmarket economy in sub-minimum wage jobs? How much tax revenue is lost because income isn't reported, and income tax and social security are not paid on these under-the-table deals?

The persistent failure to enforce our current and existing laws is not a good reason to argue against the minimum wage. If you want to see less black-market construction work, enforce the laws against the people who hire them. Don't price the illegals out of the job by lowering other people's wages so they can't compete!

This is akin to saying "it's useless to raise taxes, as rich people will just find loopholes to get around it." The fact that people seek illegal ways to get around good laws doesn't make the laws themselves bad.

DrewDad wrote:

Wanna give the poor a boost? Do it at the same way income tax is collected, but reverse it. Set a minimum income, take away one dollar for every two dollars someone earns. People have an incentive to work, and nobody starves.

You go explain that one to the Republicans. I'll concentrate on solutions that actually work in our existing society.

Cycloptichorn

Engineer seems to be saying that there is no one making the minimum wage. I suggest that he check the IRS stats, which show there are many millions making it.

You ought to. The employers have rights, just as the workers have rights.

Eliminating the minimum wage could result in improving the working conditions for the illegals. Like I said, artificial price supports create the blackmarket. It's all very well to have ideals, but don't let your ideals blind you to the realities of what happens in the world.

Well, here was a nice idealistic vision, and you go and blast right by it. This would not only help people making between $5-7/hour, but help people even above that level.

Are you so attached to the status quo that you can't even visualize something different?

Pick whether you're going to deal with realities (rejecting an alternate plan because you don't think it will pass) or ideals (stopping employers from breaking the law). You're trying to have it both ways.

Please point to the amendment which guarantees them cheap labor.

Artificial price supports do not create the black market. I think you're a little confused on this one. The black market is created by those who wish to defy the law in order to save money. This isn't a sign that the laws are themselves bad laws. What we need is better enforcement of the laws, not to remove the laws that protect American workers.

I haven't studied your proposal enough to know whether or not it would be workable. But I know it would have a difficult time being implemented. The minimum wage increase works in the absence of new plans.

Today, a minimum wage worker in Mexico makes about 12 pesos/hr and a gallon of milk costs 32 pesos. A minimum wage worker in the US makes about $6/hr and a gallon of milk costs about $2.39. So, when we compare these prices in relation to the minimum wage we see that buying a gallon of milk as a minimum wage maquila worker in Mexico would be like paying close to $13 for a gallon of milk in the US.

There is no right that guarantees that everyone has a job; I think you'll have a tough time pointing out where I claimed there was one, as opposed to your claim that employers have 'rights' that we should keep in mind.

If we get rid of minimum wage, and it gets rid of the black market for illegal laborers, those people are still out of a job. They are going to be out of a job either way we go with this.