Let's discuss the minimum wage

as an interested observer , i wonder why elected representatives should be paid more than minimum wage ?
i would think there is a good supply of people who might be willing to become representavives of the people while being paid a minimum wage .
yet the representatives usually vote THEMSELVES increases aplenty , even though they are drawing fairly good remuneration already .
a somewhat unsatisfactory situation to me .
hbg

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okie wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Okie, nice ad hominem attack. Tell us what I said that was wrong.

Part of your quote, which is so typical of the attacks you post here on a regular basis.

....the Reps are trying to kill any increase of the min wage, they are thinking of other ways to screw the poor and middle class. For instance, the so-called "Fair Tax" would further shift the wealth upward, and screwover those below.

My statement is correct.

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Your statement is nothing more than demagoguery, Advocate. A question for you to illustrate my point, if a doctor opposes the use of steroids to enhance the performance of an average person's ability to play baseball or compete in any sport for that matter, is it a case of the doctor being guilty of thinking of ways to screw the average person?

Has it ever occurred to you that allowing the minimum wage to seek its own level may actually be better for the poor and middle class in the long run and overall? If you have never considered that possibility, I would suggest you give it some consideration. Has it ever occurred to you that Republicans and Democrats could possibly want to accomplish the same thing, they both want prosperity and success by the most people possible? Republicans are not sitting around thinking of ways to screw poor people, and when you make that accusation you are indulging in demagoguery. They simply have a different idea of which policy would achieve the same goal. A Democrat's solution to poverty is to give the poor more money, whereas the Republican's solution may be to provide a playing field whereby more people will in the long run earn more money.

You can go ahead and argue your position and your belief that your chosen policies will outperform the policies proposed by Republicans, but I hope you could leave off the demagoguery. Argue the merits of the policies, thats fine, but making false accusations of motives is really pretty unproductive.

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The Reps can watch poor people starve, or do without healthcare, and somehow say that it is for their own good. They can watch the super wealthy realize huge compensation, tax breaks, etc., but that is cool. Hell, there may be some trickle down that will help those below.

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Again, you make it sound like the poor are paying all the taxes now, which is of course a lie. We already have a "progressive" tax system, which you imply does not exist, and that the rich are sitting around getting all the tax breaks while the poor pay all the tax, which is as I said, a lie. It is close to 50% of the taxpayers now that pay absolutely no income tax, and in fact many receive money over and above what they make in the first place. Yet it isn't enough and no appreciation or accuracy of analysis is applied by demagogues like yourself. You instead perpetuate more demagoguery. Why don't you just come out and say the rich ought to turn over all their money to the government for total redistribution? That seems to be the only thing that would make you people happy.

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So you don't think that there is growing plutocracy in this country. The wealth of the super rich is soaring. The middle class is treading water, and the poor are sinking down further.

You should consider what happened in Venezuela because so many silly people sat back and allowed the plutocracy grow unchecked.

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Advocate, I think you are ignoring other factors that may be causing some of the problems.

I would submit to you that one of the primary causes of poverty is cultural, not the tax system. This of course is not reported in the news and is hardly ever mentioned by anyone, much less the main stream media, as the primary problem, but if you look at the data and are honest about it, I think it is obvious.

Secondly, the types of jobs are changing, which affects different income groups in different ways. The service sector has expanded, has it not, and these types of jobs are typically not the best paying jobs unless they are highly skilled services, but I am guessing most service jobs are not.

You are assuming that more equity of incomes can be achieved solely by using the government manipulating the tax system, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree, or at least not the important trees. We instead need to have the education system and an economic environment that encourages more Middle Class and more technically skilled wage scale jobs here in the U.S. And most importantly, we need to turn around the cultural problems of single parent families, which will not be easy, but could be addressed in a number of ways if we decided to do it, but first we need to recognize the magnitude of the problem as a nation before anything can be done.

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I frequently hear people say that a poor person, to improve himself, should get an education.

It is often difficult, if not impossible, for a poor person to get an education, especially if he or she lives in a rural area. Moreover, there is a general denigration of those who work in somewhat menial jobs, implying that they need only receive pitiful compensation.

I think that a truck driver, laborer, nurses aide, store clerk, et al., should be respected. Their contributions are important to us all, and they should be paid a living wage. Instead, we are going in the other direction. This not only drags down the poor person, but also the person's dependents.

There are a number of ways this problem can be addressed, but nothing is being done. This, of course, is the way the Reps like it.

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PAYING WORKERS CUTS INTO PROFITS, THIS IS THE BARE TRUTH OF THE MATTER.

WHEN YOU CAN DEVISE A SYSTEM TO PAY WORKERS WHILE THE COMPANIES STILL RETAIN THEIR PROFITS YOU HAVE STRUCK GOLD.

IF NOT , I GOT BY THIS LITTLE PEICE OF KNOWLEDGE "LIFE ISN'T FAIR, YOU SHOULDNT BE EITHER"

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Advocate wrote:

I frequently hear people say that a poor person, to improve himself, should get an education.

That is a good recommendation. A more technically advanced society, which we are, requires more knowhow, whether it be college or trade schools.

Quote:

It is often difficult, if not impossible, for a poor person to get an education, especially if he or she lives in a rural area. Moreover, there is a general denigration of those who work in somewhat menial jobs, implying that they need only receive pitiful compensation.

It might be easier in a rural area, I'm not sure about your statement on that and where your source is. I grew up in a rural area and had more employment opportunities to save for college, not less. Also K-12 was smaller and we had more individual attention with teachers making sure we did not fall through the cracks. As far as denigration of menial jobs, I wholeheartedly agree that menial jobs are to be honored and respected if the people doing them do a good job. However, in a free market, pay scales are determined by what a job is worth. If you wish to change that, then you are ignoring all of the evidence of history that changing from a free market does not work. Shared misery does not help anyone. You cannot seem to grasp the possibility that the artificial manipulation of pay scales may have unintended consequences that hurts everyone, including those at the bottom.

Quote:

I think that a truck driver, laborer, nurses aide, store clerk, et al., should be respected. Their contributions are important to us all, and they should be paid a living wage. Instead, we are going in the other direction. This not only drags down the poor person, but also the person's dependents.

Advocate, again you seem to believe the professions you list are not respected or paid a living wage, which is wrong. Truck drivers first, I know of some that have retired very comfortably, even somewhat wealthy, after a career of driving truck. Next laborer, it depends upon what sector you are in, but if you have no skill then you will be paid what you are worth for no skill. But many laborers that I personally know of, including tree trimmers, assistants in the trades such as carpentry, roofing, etc., I know some that are doing quite fine, thanks. Nurse's aides do fairly well, as there is much demand for help in the medical field. Store clerks, it depends upon how long you work in it, what company, and how good you are. If you are honest, show up on time, and have any motivation and management skill you will probably advance to a decently paid position with a company.

Quote:

There are a number of ways this problem can be addressed, but nothing is being done. This, of course, is the way the Reps like it.

Again, you demagogue the Republicans, asserting they like people to non-achieve. I am one that has about had it with people like yourself that sit around and complain about the government not doing this or that and apparently want the government to give everyone a retirement fortune without ever doing anything at all. Whiners and complainers like yourself fail to remember there are millions breaking the door down to come to this country because opportunity abounds. Open your eyes and you might see. Get a life.

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okie wrote:

Advocate wrote:
I frequently hear people say that a poor person, to improve himself, should get an education.

That is a good recommendation. A more technically advanced society, which we are, requires more knowhow, whether it be college or trade schools.

NOT EVERYONE HAS THE ABILITY TO GO HIGHER WITH AN EDUCATION. MANY PEOPLE CAN BARELY FINISH HIGHSCHOOL. IT SEEMS THAT YOU AND YOUR FELLOW REPS FEEL THAT THEY CAN JUST DROP DEAD (WITHOUT THE BENEFITS OF HEALTHCARE).

Quote:
It is often difficult, if not impossible, for a poor person to get an education, especially if he or she lives in a rural area. Moreover, there is a general denigration of those who work in somewhat menial jobs, implying that they need only receive pitiful compensation.

It might be easier in a rural area, I'm not sure about your statement on that and where your source is. I grew up in a rural area and had more employment opportunities to save for college, not less. Also K-12 was smaller and we had more individual attention with teachers making sure we did not fall through the cracks. As far as denigration of menial jobs, I wholeheartedly agree that menial jobs are to be honored and respected if the people doing them do a good job. However, in a free market, pay scales are determined by what a job is worth. If you wish to change that, then you are ignoring all of the evidence of history that changing from a free market does not work. Shared misery does not help anyone. You cannot seem to grasp the possibility that the artificial manipulation of pay scales may have unintended consequences that hurts everyone, including those at the bottom.

THERE ARE FEW COLLEGES AND TECHNICAL SCHOOLS IN RURAL AREAS, AND PEOPLE THERE USUALLY LACK THE MONEY TO MOVE TO ATTEND SCHOOL. THERE IS ALSO A LACK OF PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION TO GET TO A COLLEGE, ETC. THERE ARE FEW JOBS IN THE RURAL AREAS, WHICH IS WHY SO MANY PEOPLE ARE FLEEING TO THE CITY. MANY YOUNG PEOPLE FROM THERE FEEL FORCED TO JOIN THE MILITARY TO WORK AND, POSSIBLY, GET TRAINING. THERE IS NO REAL FREE MARKET RELATIVE TO JOBS. THE CEO MAKES WHAT A THOUSAND IN HIS COMPANY MAKE, AND THE COMPENSATION IS NOT SET IN AN ARM'S LENGTH TRANSACTION. ILLEGALS, WHO UNDERCUT THE LOCALS, ARE HIRED. GOD FORBID THE AMERICAN YOUTH ARE SOMEHOW PROTECTED.

Quote:
I think that a truck driver, laborer, nurses aide, store clerk, et al., should be respected. Their contributions are important to us all, and they should be paid a living wage. Instead, we are going in the other direction. This not only drags down the poor person, but also the person's dependents.

Advocate, again you seem to believe the professions you list are not respected or paid a living wage, which is wrong. Truck drivers first, I know of some that have retired very comfortably, even somewhat wealthy, after a career of driving truck. Next laborer, it depends upon what sector you are in, but if you have no skill then you will be paid what you are worth for no skill. But many laborers that I personally know of, including tree trimmers, assistants in the trades such as carpentry, roofing, etc., I know some that are doing quite fine, thanks. Nurse's aides do fairly well, as there is much demand for help in the medical field. Store clerks, it depends upon how long you work in it, what company, and how good you are. If you are honest, show up on time, and have any motivation and management skill you will probably advance to a decently paid position with a company.

THAT IS INCREASINGLY WRONG. WAGES ARE GOING NOWHERE, AND BENEFITS ARE DISAPPEARING. MANY OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE TO WORK AT MULTIPLE JOBS TO MAKE ENDS MEET. THE DAYS WHEN A WORKER COULD HAVE A NICE HOUSE, A CAR, AND MONEY TO SEND KIDS TO COLLEGE, ARE PRETTY MUCH GONE.

Quote:
There are a number of ways this problem can be addressed, but nothing is being done. This, of course, is the way the Reps like it.

Again, you demagogue the Republicans, asserting they like people to non-achieve. I am one that has about had it with people like yourself that sit around and complain about the government not doing this or that and apparently want the government to give everyone a retirement fortune without ever doing anything at all. Whiners and complainers like yourself fail to remember there are millions breaking the door down to come to this country because opportunity abounds. Open your eyes and you might see. Get a life.

REREAD THE KRUGMAN PIECE. THOSE ON THE RIGHT GET A BIG LAUGH OVER POOR BEING HUNGRY, UNABLE TO GET HEALTHCARE, ETC., AND WILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH ANY EFFORT TO GIVE THOSE PEOPLE A HAND.

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I guess the right even swiftboats little kids.

ETHICS -- RIGHT WING LAUNCHES BASELESS SMEAR CAMPAIGN AGAINST 12-YEAR OLD SCHIP RECIPIENT: Two weeks ago, the Democratic radio address was delivered by a 12-year old Graeme Frost, who was involved in a severe car accident three years ago and received access to medical care because of the Children's Health Insurance Program. Following the speech, conservatives began launching baseless attacks on Graeme and his family. A poster at Free Republic asserted that Graeme and his sister Gemma attend wealthy schools that cost "nearly $40,000 per year for tuition" and live in a well-off home. The smear attack against Graeme has also taken firm hold in the right-wing blogosphere. The National Review, Michelle Malkin, Wizbang, Powerline, and the Weekly Standard blog have all launched assaults on the Frost family. The story is slowly working its way into traditional media outlets as well. Here are the facts the right wing distorted in order to attack Graeme: First, Graeme has a scholarship to a private school. The school costs $15K a year, but the family only pays $500 a year. Second, the Frosts bought their "lavish house" 16 years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less safe. And finally, the Frosts make $45,000 combined and over the past few years they have made no more than $50,000 combined. Since the address, right wing bloggers have been harassing the Frosts, repeatedly calling their home to get information about their private lives.

--Americanprogressaction.com

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Oh comrades.
Kindly allow me to put this question for your clarification.

(USA is a land of opportunity and a super power to boot with to silence any country around the globe with the borrowed brains from various countries.
Is it not shameful enough to discuss a topic like this?
Should not those who serve earnestly get the need based minimum wage?)

Now my question.
USA upholds the principle of Market economy and oppose social economy.
In the market economy the wages are decided according to the performance .
Are the American politicians qualified to earn the "puny pittance "
what they get for their performance and qualification?
What should be the need based minimum wage for a president who rules USA?

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Advocate wrote:

okie wrote:
Advocate wrote:
I frequently hear people say that a poor person, to improve himself, should get an education.

That is a good recommendation. A more technically advanced society, which we are, requires more knowhow, whether it be college or trade schools.

NOT EVERYONE HAS THE ABILITY TO GO HIGHER WITH AN EDUCATION. MANY PEOPLE CAN BARELY FINISH HIGHSCHOOL. IT SEEMS THAT YOU AND YOUR FELLOW REPS FEEL THAT THEY CAN JUST DROP DEAD (WITHOUT THE BENEFITS OF HEALTHCARE).

Quote:
It is often difficult, if not impossible, for a poor person to get an education, especially if he or she lives in a rural area. Moreover, there is a general denigration of those who work in somewhat menial jobs, implying that they need only receive pitiful compensation.

It might be easier in a rural area, I'm not sure about your statement on that and where your source is. I grew up in a rural area and had more employment opportunities to save for college, not less. Also K-12 was smaller and we had more individual attention with teachers making sure we did not fall through the cracks. As far as denigration of menial jobs, I wholeheartedly agree that menial jobs are to be honored and respected if the people doing them do a good job. However, in a free market, pay scales are determined by what a job is worth. If you wish to change that, then you are ignoring all of the evidence of history that changing from a free market does not work. Shared misery does not help anyone. You cannot seem to grasp the possibility that the artificial manipulation of pay scales may have unintended consequences that hurts everyone, including those at the bottom.

THERE ARE FEW COLLEGES AND TECHNICAL SCHOOLS IN RURAL AREAS, AND PEOPLE THERE USUALLY LACK THE MONEY TO MOVE TO ATTEND SCHOOL. THERE IS ALSO A LACK OF PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION TO GET TO A COLLEGE, ETC. THERE ARE FEW JOBS IN THE RURAL AREAS, WHICH IS WHY SO MANY PEOPLE ARE FLEEING TO THE CITY. MANY YOUNG PEOPLE FROM THERE FEEL FORCED TO JOIN THE MILITARY TO WORK AND, POSSIBLY, GET TRAINING. THERE IS NO REAL FREE MARKET RELATIVE TO JOBS. THE CEO MAKES WHAT A THOUSAND IN HIS COMPANY MAKE, AND THE COMPENSATION IS NOT SET IN AN ARM'S LENGTH TRANSACTION. ILLEGALS, WHO UNDERCUT THE LOCALS, ARE HIRED. GOD FORBID THE AMERICAN YOUTH ARE SOMEHOW PROTECTED.

Quote:
I think that a truck driver, laborer, nurses aide, store clerk, et al., should be respected. Their contributions are important to us all, and they should be paid a living wage. Instead, we are going in the other direction. This not only drags down the poor person, but also the person's dependents.

Advocate, again you seem to believe the professions you list are not respected or paid a living wage, which is wrong. Truck drivers first, I know of some that have retired very comfortably, even somewhat wealthy, after a career of driving truck. Next laborer, it depends upon what sector you are in, but if you have no skill then you will be paid what you are worth for no skill. But many laborers that I personally know of, including tree trimmers, assistants in the trades such as carpentry, roofing, etc., I know some that are doing quite fine, thanks. Nurse's aides do fairly well, as there is much demand for help in the medical field. Store clerks, it depends upon how long you work in it, what company, and how good you are. If you are honest, show up on time, and have any motivation and management skill you will probably advance to a decently paid position with a company.

THAT IS INCREASINGLY WRONG. WAGES ARE GOING NOWHERE, AND BENEFITS ARE DISAPPEARING. MANY OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE TO WORK AT MULTIPLE JOBS TO MAKE ENDS MEET. THE DAYS WHEN A WORKER COULD HAVE A NICE HOUSE, A CAR, AND MONEY TO SEND KIDS TO COLLEGE, ARE PRETTY MUCH GONE.

Quote:
There are a number of ways this problem can be addressed, but nothing is being done. This, of course, is the way the Reps like it.

Again, you demagogue the Republicans, asserting they like people to non-achieve. I am one that has about had it with people like yourself that sit around and complain about the government not doing this or that and apparently want the government to give everyone a retirement fortune without ever doing anything at all. Whiners and complainers like yourself fail to remember there are millions breaking the door down to come to this country because opportunity abounds. Open your eyes and you might see. Get a life.

REREAD THE KRUGMAN PIECE. THOSE ON THE RIGHT GET A BIG LAUGH OVER POOR BEING HUNGRY, UNABLE TO GET HEALTHCARE, ETC., AND WILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH ANY EFFORT TO GIVE THOSE PEOPLE A HAND.

First of all, learn how to enclose quotes, because I did not write what you said, so please do not make it look like I did. Secondly, have you ever been poor? I am guessing you are not poor and never have been so you have some kind of guilt complex, so you must think everyone that has been poor or is poor are stupid and incapable of doing anything for themselves.

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Ramafuchs wrote:

Is it not shameful enough to discuss a topic like this?

Why would it be shameful to discuss anything. Especially, why would it be shameful to discuss economic policy?

Wouldn't it be more shameful to ignore the possibility that something harmful is being done in the name of justice?

Is it shameful to discuss the death penalty?

Is it shameful to discuss the war in Iraq?

You, sir, are the one that should be ashamed.

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Advocate wrote:

I guess the right even swiftboats little kids.

ETHICS -- RIGHT WING LAUNCHES BASELESS SMEAR CAMPAIGN AGAINST 12-YEAR OLD SCHIP RECIPIENT: Two weeks ago, the Democratic radio address was delivered by a 12-year old Graeme Frost, who was involved in a severe car accident three years ago and received access to medical care because of the Children's Health Insurance Program. Following the speech, conservatives began launching baseless attacks on Graeme and his family. A poster at Free Republic asserted that Graeme and his sister Gemma attend wealthy schools that cost "nearly $40,000 per year for tuition" and live in a well-off home. The smear attack against Graeme has also taken firm hold in the right-wing blogosphere. The National Review, Michelle Malkin, Wizbang, Powerline, and the Weekly Standard blog have all launched assaults on the Frost family. The story is slowly working its way into traditional media outlets as well. Here are the facts the right wing distorted in order to attack Graeme: First, Graeme has a scholarship to a private school. The school costs $15K a year, but the family only pays $500 a year. Second, the Frosts bought their "lavish house" 16 years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less safe. And finally, the Frosts make $45,000 combined and over the past few years they have made no more than $50,000 combined. Since the address, right wing bloggers have been harassing the Frosts, repeatedly calling their home to get information about their private lives.

--Americanprogressaction.com

NONSENSE. If the Democrats are going to use children as their stooges, yes stooges, then telling the facts about something is 100% proper. By the way, the Swift Boats were responding to Kerry's history of smearing the military, so get over it.

By the way, public schools are free. Even if the Frosts pay only $500 per year, that would buy alot of accident insurance. That is only one factor. And has been pointed out, these people are not poverty stricken.

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okie wrote:

Advocate wrote:
I guess the right even swiftboats little kids.

ETHICS -- RIGHT WING LAUNCHES BASELESS SMEAR CAMPAIGN AGAINST 12-YEAR OLD SCHIP RECIPIENT: Two weeks ago, the Democratic radio address was delivered by a 12-year old Graeme Frost, who was involved in a severe car accident three years ago and received access to medical care because of the Children's Health Insurance Program. Following the speech, conservatives began launching baseless attacks on Graeme and his family. A poster at Free Republic asserted that Graeme and his sister Gemma attend wealthy schools that cost "nearly $40,000 per year for tuition" and live in a well-off home. The smear attack against Graeme has also taken firm hold in the right-wing blogosphere. The National Review, Michelle Malkin, Wizbang, Powerline, and the Weekly Standard blog have all launched assaults on the Frost family. The story is slowly working its way into traditional media outlets as well. Here are the facts the right wing distorted in order to attack Graeme: First, Graeme has a scholarship to a private school. The school costs $15K a year, but the family only pays $500 a year. Second, the Frosts bought their "lavish house" 16 years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less safe. And finally, the Frosts make $45,000 combined and over the past few years they have made no more than $50,000 combined. Since the address, right wing bloggers have been harassing the Frosts, repeatedly calling their home to get information about their private lives.

--Americanprogressaction.com

NONSENSE. If the Democrats are going to use children as their stooges, yes stooges, then telling the facts about something is 100% proper. By the way, the Swift Boats were responding to Kerry's history of smearing the military, so get over it.

The swift boaters were paid handsomely to do what they did. You know for a fact that they didn't spontaneously get together to say what they said; they were brought together as a political attack against Kerry.

Nobody used a child as their 'stooge.' The right-wing seems to think it's appropriate to harass people as much as possible who receive any sort of assistance from the gov't, to the point of posting their address online and driving by their house.

This isn't 'citizen journalist' stuff. It's crazy a$$hole stuff.

Cycloptichorn

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The Democrats are too holier than thou to ever be questioned then, cylcops?

I do not advocate personal harrassment, that should stop if any has occurred, but journalists have all the rights to investigate them personally if they are going to make false claims that may affect all of the rest of us.

I supported the Swiftees, cyclops, and still do, and that is my right as an American citizen, at least it used to be. I would vote for most of the Swift Boat guys long before I would ever do the same for Kerry. They are more honorable and more honest.

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okie wrote:

The Democrats are too holier than thou to ever be questioned then, cylcops?

I do not advocate personal harrassment, that should stop if any has occurred, but journalists have all the rights to investigate them personally if they are going to make false claims that may affect all of the rest of us.

I supported the Swiftees, cyclops, and still do, and that is my right as an American citizen, at least it used to be. I would vote for most of the Swift Boat guys long before I would ever do the same for Kerry. They are more honorable and more honest.

You should be honest about them if you support them: they were paid to say what they said. And many of them had had glowing things to say about Kerry just a few years before. Which makes them liars and frauds.

This whole thing isn't about one particular family; it's about hardcore, right-wing Republicans looking to get rid of any sort of public assistance to anyone, ever, b/c it's not fair that they have to pay for others, period. They don't care what the circumstances are; if people aren't willing to sell everything they own and go into debt in order to pay for their insurance, they shouldn't get any help from anyone.

F*cking ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn

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Have you ever heard of Winter Soldier, cyclops? If you had been in Vietnam, you would have known what Kerry was from the very beginning. You will never ever convince me otherwise with any spin you can find. There is not one shred of chance ever that your spin can change reality. Kerry was a fraud and if you are too blind to see it, I feel sorry for you.

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Let's discuss the minimum wage

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