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New roll-out (propaganda campaign) for war with Iran?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 05:35 pm
Having said that I must add that a great deal of intellectual opinion over here exercised itself on what you would do when the "Cold War" ended and you had no enemies.

Most of it settled on you finding one.

I think the theology was something to do with such a disparate nation only being able to feel united with a dangerous enemy. That it would disintegrate without one.

I have no view on such complex matters. I'm only reporting the gist of what I read.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 05:42 pm
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
I had missed that and apologize for the error.


Apologies are neither here nor there to me.

What you should focus on is how you made the error. It's usually impatience.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 05:47 pm
spendius wrote:
Cyclo wrote-

Quote:
I had missed that and apologize for the error.


Apologies are neither here nor there to me.

What you should focus on is how you made the error. It's usually impatience.


I retract that apology, in the face of your jerkiness.

Also, you wrote:

Quote:
Note how all but the last of these could have come easily from the mouths of Zahawiri or any other insane muslim extremist.


But you didn't say you disagreed with it. So I submit that it is still a horrible thing to say, not axiomatic, and if you agree with it, you agree with a horrible thing. Is this the case?

Cycloptichorn
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 05:52 pm
I don't agree with it. Okay.

"Ten years" is not always right. It's often less than that.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 12:02 pm
spendius wrote:
Bernie-

I think all the quotes you present from Mr Ledeen express at least approximations to the truth.

If they render the liberal conscience into the tremblies and challenge the self-reassuring view it has of itself as "sweet pretty things" which ought to be in bed at this time of night it has nothing to do with Zahawiri or anything else. Cricket is like that which is why umpires are necessary. The UN is, as yet, an ineffective umpire.

What's your problem with them? Darwinian evolution theory would entirely agree with the first five. And you're a Darwinian I think. Clausewitz would have agreed I think.

Somebody earlier spoke about getting the troops "out of harm's way". Well that's what troops are for isn't it? They are professional people who have volunteered to put themselves in harm's way. The Draft would be a different matter. If you got to the point, as we have, where more truck drivers are killed than military personnel you would make the brass band parades look silly.

One thing I did notice recently is Gen Petreus had a medal display on his chest which reminded me of the displays on Soviet general's chests and look what happened to them.

The guy is telling the truth. Yoy just want to be a nice guy whilst blissfully taking advantage of the spoils of war. And you are free to do that of course. But not to join an intellectual debate about the matter coming from the goody-goody two-shoes side and smearing patriots with cheap jibes and asserted insults.

By calling them insane you axiomatically grant them permission to say you are unless you claim the right to insult people as a monopoly of your side.


Bunny Lebowski: He's a nihilist.

The Dude: That must be exhausting.


"The guy is telling the truth."
Nothing personal my friend, but your self-nomination for Truth Discerner hasn't been seconded.

And frankly, I don't see any immediate prospect of it happening. That headline you have stapled to your chest, featuring your heroism as Unblinking Chasm Starer, probably ought to have been typeset on something lighter than an albatross.

The tragic is obvious, spendi. It is yellowing news and it is the least interesting 'truth' available for survey.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 01:33 pm
So what? It proves nothing. Most people don't like facing up to those things you quoted. I didn't propose them.

Quote:
That headline you have stapled to your chest, featuring your heroism as Unblinking Chasm Starer, probably ought to have been typeset on something lighter than an albatross.


That's just wordplay. It shows how you treat these matters as personal entertainment. The door is supposed to slam after delivering one of those and self-important footsteps heard fading down the corridor.

If you want to argue about those propositions ( the first five say) pick one out and get on with it. Pulling your tongue out at them is useless except as evidence of your gravitas.

Doesn't a uniform with a holster strapped on signify a state monopoly of lethal force in the service of established interests? Yes or no with no flim-flam will do.

The truth never "yellows" and is the only interesting thing.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Sep, 2007 11:55 pm
As the neoconservative element in and around the present administration has been a relevant part of this thread's subject, I'll link this review of Podhoretz's book...
Quote:
fulll article here http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20590
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 06:10 am
I'm surprised at you quoting the hearsay from Mr Buruma. He has a book/s about "evil" and a materialist, atheist Darwinian can't even recognise such a concept because it varies with place and time and in our society it is only what Christian morality has said it is. Perhaps a report from one of the other dinner guests would be in order to provide "balance". It was nice of him to qualify one of his smears with ", to my knowledge,.....". He might easily say that I have no military experience, to his knowledge.

Anyway- it helped you to evade the question in the previous post I suppose so it is justified. And it helped Mr Buruma to another fee for supplying empty plastic bags.

Are dinner parties on the record now. One might have to be chary about inviting Mr Buruma to a dinner party if he is going to go public on what is said and without allowing for the possibility of some irony.

I did specifically ask for no flim-flam.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 11:48 pm
The ten years of warn activity has to do with the expiry of the armor, bombs and missiles. After all the chemicals in the ordnance may no longer be as effective so might as well use 'em and manufacture an overseas crisis for the legitimate use of the near expiry bombs. The military-industrial complex must be kept employed to make more bombs and missiles. All those retired military personnel at the defense contractors will see to it, for sure.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 05:49 am
That looks to be a perfectly rational part of the explanation.

What level of output of consumer goods would be manufactured if there was no military material being made and would Americans have the energy to consume it all and if not what would employment figures look like and where would the Dow go.

There's the WarWar party and the JawJaw party. I think the letter got stuffed on 9/11.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 09:25 pm
The defense contractors charge $5,000 for a toilet seat and $1,000 for a hammer and won the Golden Fleece Award from Wisconsin Senator Proxmire.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 04:59 am
As Minderbinder might have said- You all have a share in the syndicate.

A defence contractor is a thing. The money goes to people who spend it, or invest it, and before you know you have Madison Ave and Wall St and shops selling hand made personal adornment gee-gaws to cast spells with and such like.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 08:55 am
This is cute...from the Rupert Murdoch/Bill Kristol Weekly Standard this morning... the Nazis are coming, the Nazis are coming!!!

Quote:
Jew-Hatred and Jihad
The Nazi roots of the 9/11 attack.
by Matthias Küntzel
09/17/2007, Volume 013, Issue 01

The idea of using suicide pilots to obliterate the skyscrapers of Manhattan originated in 1940s Berlin. "In the latter stages of the war, I never saw Hitler so beside himself as when, as if in a delirium, he was picturing to himself and to us the downfall of New York in towers of flame," wrote Albert Speer in his diary. "He described the skyscrapers turning into huge burning torches and falling hither and thither, and the reflection of the disintegrating city in the dark sky."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 09:10 am
During the hearings, Petraeus said he didn't know about the US military requirements outside of Iraq. However, it does seem curious that he's ready to downsize in Iraq - to prepare for the war in Iran. Just a thought.[/b][/color]
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 09:25 am
ci

Some have interpreted Petraeus' performance yesterday as, at least in part, a jacking-up of the rhetoric against Iran.

And that may well be so...the speech/inquiry/media interviews may have been designed with this as part of their goal. I suspect that is the case.

But yet one isn't forced into the conclusion that military action is therefore imminent. Any strategy which features non-military means to achieving this administration's goals re Iran WILL have heated rhetoric and military threats as part of the process.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 09:28 am
Petraeus doesn't learn from history either! All he's achieving is to lose all that he has accomplished over a life-time to satisfy a brain-dead boss. I used to think he was one of the smarter guys in military uniform.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 10:02 am
The canard about the $5000 toilet seat is now about twenty tears old. It started as the $1,200 toilet seat. What the media writer who originated the story left out was the fact that his story was metaphorical. In fact the article in question was a complete, preformed toilet compartment assembly (similar to those in airliners), to be installed in the Lockheed
P-3, Orion Patrol Plane. Such fabrications appear to have a very strong and lasting attraction to those who are not inclined to think for themselves.

Those inclines to always prefer conspiracy theories over other, often far more likely, scenarios should perhaps give some consideration to their own psychological dispositions and motivations. I believe this observation applies equally well to the toilet seat nonsense and the rather tortured analysis of Pertaeus' testimony posted here.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 10:05 am
ci

Rick's "Fiasco" is a very good book. Petraeus is one of the few individuals who comes out with integrity and exceptional smarts. He likely is among the very best the US military has to offer presently and that's no small thing.

But he has a job to do. Partly, that is handling the insurgency (insurgencies are the subject of his doctoral thesis) and partly that is doing the bidding of his boss. I admit he's rather unfortunate to have the boss he has.

Per his own writings, an element of handling an insurgency (and this applies to military action generally) is the effective propagandization of the effort back home (and more widely, of course). He's following his own playbook here in this as well as doing what is advantageous for his boss. What he did yesterday was propaganda.

I do wish that fellows like he and Powell were less prone to the authoritarianism of the military system and to the subjugation of self which is a part of that. But there's another side to this too. Imagine how pathological the military (and those who use the military with criminal or suspect motives) would be without the tempering influence of individuals like Powell or Petraeus.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 10:14 am
blatham, Good point; militarism is about following orders without questioning the command given. However, as we have learned from Vietnam, some commanders gave orders to kill civilians without mercy. Individuals must still know the difference between right and wrong no matter who tries to command our actions.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Sep, 2007 10:21 am
hi george

I miss you. I long for those rich private moments we've shared. I hope everyone is well over in georgeland.
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