0
   

You are a "Nigger" and I am a "Cracker"

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 08:17 am
Miller wrote:
You don't know what you're talking about. Anyone from the SouthSide knows that Polish-AMericans have been called
hunkies and Polish-Bohemians have been called Bo-hunks and
as a native from the SouthSIde of Chicago, I know it's a fact.

What the hell is a "Polish-Bohemian?" That's like calling someone an "American-Canadian." Unless, of course, you're referring to Poles who are destitute artists living in Parisian garrets.

Miller wrote:
And by the way JOE, you're the one who can't even list the City limits by street name for the City of Chicago...

I know that you're trying to insult me -- and don't think I don't appreciate the effort -- but that has got to be just about the lamest insult ever. I mean really, even cjhsa can get off better zingers than that one. I suppose that your feeble attempt might have some sting if I had ever claimed that I could list the streets that mark the city limits of Chicago, or even if someone had ever asked me to name the streets that mark the city limits, but I never did and you certainly never have.

In fact, I can't imagine why anyone would know what streets mark the city limits of Chicago, but you clearly seem to think it's important. That's why I am confident that you could name every single street that marks a boundary line of the city of Chicago. Indeed, I'm sure you can do it in response to this post. But just to make it worth your while, if you perform this task successfully, I will make my signature line "Miller is the Queen of the Southside of Chicago" for an entire month.

Miller wrote:
Which suburb do you live in JOE, as it's obvious you know crap about neither SOUTH CHICAGO nor the SouthSide of Chicago...

Very flattering, Miller, but if you want to stalk me you'll have to come up with a better method for finding out my address.

Miller wrote:
Duh!!

Maybe that should be your signature line.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 08:22 am
Thanks Joe for mentioning me in this quality thread.

You're a real effing Chapelle.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 08:30 am
cjhsa wrote:
Thanks Joe for mentioning me in this quality thread.

You're a real effing Chapelle.


please, we need a quality thread like maybe a picture of Ted Nugent fondling his Gibson substitute penis or a shot of someone in a flannel cap surrounded by the carcasses of a bunch of dead animals Laughing
0 Replies
 
Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 08:38 am
If we just change the words to Ninjas and Crackstars the world would be a better place.

NINJA PLEASE!
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 08:40 am
cjhsa wrote:
Thanks Joe for mentioning me in this quality thread.

You're a real effing Chapelle.

Here I am, giving you a compliment on your insult skills, and then you come up with something so disappointingly Milleresque. Imagine my chagrin.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 08:48 am
I am taking my cracker ass out on a bike ride.... please in my absence... no riots, violence or bloodshed.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 09:14 am
joefromchicago wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
Thanks Joe for mentioning me in this quality thread.

You're a real effing Chapelle.

Here I am, giving you a compliment on your insult skills, and then you come up with something so disappointingly Milleresque. Imagine my chagrin.


Please refrain from mentioning my handle in threads that I have not participated in.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 10:03 am
cjhsa wrote:
Thanks Joe for mentioning me in this quality thread.

You're a real effing Chapelle.


Joe's from the Chicago suburbs and is trying to impress the big City-folks with his ignorance.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 10:08 am
Quote:
Origins of bohunk, hunky and honky:

Honky comes from bohunk and hunky, derogatory terms for Bohemian, Hungarian, and Polish immigrants that came into use around the turn of the century. According to Robert Hendrickson, author of the Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins, black workers in Chicago meat-packing plants picked up the term from white workers and began applying it indiscriminately to all Caucasians. Probably thought they all looked alike.



A little education for our friend joe from the Chicago suburbs.
Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 10:10 am
cjhsa wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
Thanks Joe for mentioning me in this quality thread.

You're a real effing Chapelle.

Here I am, giving you a compliment on your insult skills, and then you come up with something so disappointingly Milleresque. Imagine my chagrin.


Please refrain from mentioning my handle in threads that I have not participated in.


Joe from the suburbs is trying to get your goat. Just pretend he's not here with the kind and gentle folks like you and me. Razz
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 10:46 am
Miller wrote:
pstewart wrote:
Miller wrote:
[Where were you living as a girl, that there were separate fountains and restrooms for blacks and whites?


Yes, and separate park service swimming pools, and sections in restaurants, etc. I lived in Pennsylvania near Pittsburgh and this was in the early fifties. It was the norm, even in northern states, before segregation was wiped out in the sixties.


You lived in a small town near Pittsburgh that had separate restrooms for black and whites? And where else in the North,
did these separate but equal facilites exist in the North during the 1950s and 1960s?

I remember separate drinking fountains in Vidalia GA in the 60's---and Black and White proms in the 70s and Black and White Homecoming Queens in the 70s as well.

We weren't integrated until I was in third grade...

Bloody Toombs....
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 11:29 am
cjhsa wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
cjhsa wrote:
Thanks Joe for mentioning me in this quality thread.

You're a real effing Chapelle.

Here I am, giving you a compliment on your insult skills, and then you come up with something so disappointingly Milleresque. Imagine my chagrin.


Please refrain from mentioning my handle in threads that I have not participated in.

I'll take that under advisement.
0 Replies
 
pstewart
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 01:33 pm
Miller wrote:
You didn't say it was Pittsburgh, you said it was a small town near Pittsburgh.

Yes, sorry about that. It was one of the many smaller milltowns that lined the rivers to Pittsburgh, actually. Not an isolated "small town" as in a rural town, but part of the greater metropolitan area. All of these milltowns were much the same, and Pittsburgh itself had the same type of segregation.

When I said segregated facilities were the norm in the north, I meant to say EVEN in the north... or at least parts of it. My point was that not only southern blacks suffered such discrimination, but even blacks living in the more liberated north. Curious as to how widespread it was, I searched the web for instances of segregation in northern states and didn't find a lot. Yes, it appears that the south was far more guilty than the north, with their infamous Jim Crow laws, but the north had a share in it too. The first quote below is from K. M. Stone speaking of the situation in Chicago as late as one year before the civil rights act of 1964. Chicago is a northern city, of course, and the second quote involves the lake shore area north of Chicago.

Quote:
Bridgeport Library Branch, Chicago, IL, Circa 1963

Two friends and I visited the Bridgeport Library Branch in Chicago, Illinois. [...]

Bridgeport was the neighborhood of former Mayor Richard J. Daly and is all white. We were three Black young men of 11 and 12 years old. We visited the Bridgeport Branch because we couldn't find the books we needed at the Oakland branch, in the Black neighborhood. We crossed the color line to the other side of the tracks. [...]
I was never so scared in all of my life. We were attacked by a white mob for our brazen boldness to use the white library branch.[...]


Quote:
Northern Illinois 1941

... our childhood was styled by a separation of coloreds and whites. Society did not question separate bathrooms or drinking fountains, because that's the way it was.


In Pennsylvania, as I've told you, the Pittsburgh area (at the western end of the state) practiced blatant segregation of all sorts into the fifties. Now, another web story tells of job discrimination in Philadelphia (at the eastern end of the state) where a young man was told by a store owner that
Quote:
We don't hire niggers.

Philadelphia is, and was then, called "the city of brotherly love" but only for whites, I suppose.

Author Brian Whitson, while writing a book about segregation in the north, had this to say in an interview:
Quote:
I discovered a number of legal disputes in northern states during the first half of the 20th century involving school segregation. I had known that many northern communities had operated racially separate schools, but I had always assumed that such segregation was due to residential segregation. What I noticed in the NAACP archives, though, was that many northern towns segregated schoolchildren in a manner similar to southern towns, by establishing a white school for all of the town's white children and a "colored" school for all of the town's black children. Or by operating a single school with racially separate classrooms, racially separate playgrounds, and even racially separate American flags. The more I researched, the more examples I found of this kind of explicit segregation in the North.


So it was not just the south that treated blacks as an inferior race to be separated from the "better" whites. Plenty of blame to go around in all parts of the country, and plenty of horror stories from black families who lived in these times.

Again, my main point in what I've posted here is that life was much more unfair and much harder for past generations of blacks. Things are getting better, and if a single word is upsetting folks these days, it's time to look back a bit to when actions, not just words, were aimed at making blacks feel inferior. Sticks and stones... words are NOT the same as bullets. Words are NOT the same as lynching. Sticks and stones... try to remember the difference.

Sorry that Mame finds my posts offensive... certainly never meant them that way. If you consider it an "offense" to ask someone to elaborate on a one-line catchphrase they tossed out as a profound truth, when upon examination it is NOT true, well, then I am certainly in the wrong forum here and won't waste my time further.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 01:55 pm
It's never what someone says, it's how, pstewart.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 02:28 pm
pstewart wrote:
Miller wrote:
You didn't say it was Pittsburgh, you said it was a small town near Pittsburgh.

Yes, sorry about that. It was one of the many smaller milltowns that lined the rivers to Pittsburgh, actually. Not an isolated "small town" as in a rural town, but part of the greater metropolitan area. All of these milltowns were much the same, and Pittsburgh itself had the same type of segregation.

When I said segregated facilities were the norm in the north, I meant to say EVEN in the north... or at least parts of it. My point was that not only southern blacks suffered such discrimination, but even blacks living in the more liberated north. Curious as to how widespread it was, I searched the web for instances of segregation in northern states and didn't find a lot. Yes, it appears that the south was far more guilty than the north, with their infamous Jim Crow laws, but the north had a share in it too. The first quote below is from K. M. Stone speaking of the situation in Chicago as late as one year before the civil rights act of 1964. Chicago is a northern city, of course, and the second quote involves the lake shore area north of Chicago.

Quote:
Bridgeport Library Branch, Chicago, IL, Circa 1963

Two friends and I visited the Bridgeport Library Branch in Chicago, Illinois. [...]

Bridgeport was the neighborhood of former Mayor Richard J. Daly and is all white. We were three Black young men of 11 and 12 years old. We visited the Bridgeport Branch because we couldn't find the books we needed at the Oakland branch, in the Black neighborhood. We crossed the color line to the other side of the tracks. [...]
I was never so scared in all of my life. We were attacked by a white mob for our brazen boldness to use the white library branch.[...]


Quote:
Northern Illinois 1941

... our childhood was styled by a separation of coloreds and whites. Society did not question separate bathrooms or drinking fountains, because that's the way it was.


In Pennsylvania, as I've told you, the Pittsburgh area (at the western end of the state) practiced blatant segregation of all sorts into the fifties. Now, another web story tells of job discrimination in Philadelphia (at the eastern end of the state) where a young man was told by a store owner that
Quote:
We don't hire niggers.

Philadelphia is, and was then, called "the city of brotherly love" but only for whites, I suppose.

Author Brian Whitson, while writing a book about segregation in the north, had this to say in an interview:
Quote:
I discovered a number of legal disputes in northern states during the first half of the 20th century involving school segregation. I had known that many northern communities had operated racially separate schools, but I had always assumed that such segregation was due to residential segregation. What I noticed in the NAACP archives, though, was that many northern towns segregated schoolchildren in a manner similar to southern towns, by establishing a white school for all of the town's white children and a "colored" school for all of the town's black children. Or by operating a single school with racially separate classrooms, racially separate playgrounds, and even racially separate American flags. The more I researched, the more examples I found of this kind of explicit segregation in the North.


So it was not just the south that treated blacks as an inferior race to be separated from the "better" whites. Plenty of blame to go around in all parts of the country, and plenty of horror stories from black families who lived in these times.

Again, my main point in what I've posted here is that life was much more unfair and much harder for past generations of blacks. Things are getting better, and if a single word is upsetting folks these days, it's time to look back a bit to when actions, not just words, were aimed at making blacks feel inferior. Sticks and stones... words are NOT the same as bullets. Words are NOT the same as lynching. Sticks and stones... try to remember the difference.

Sorry that Mame finds my posts offensive... certainly never meant them that way. If you consider it an "offense" to ask someone to elaborate on a one-line catchphrase they tossed out as a profound truth, when upon examination it is NOT true, well, then I am certainly in the wrong forum here and won't waste my time further.


This is all fine, except you forgot the references. Where are your sources?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 02:30 pm
pstewart, since you're apparently into history, how about looking up the race riot history of Chicago and posting a commentary on that?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 02:31 pm
Of particular interest may be the riot in Chicago, the night of Martin Luther King's murder.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 05:26 pm
Miller wrote:
This is all fine, except you forgot the references. Where are your sources?

Why dont you just copy any length of text from his quotes into Google, put it between quotation marks, and press enter? Thats an easy way to find out, I mean, if you're actually interested in the source rather than trying to score points.

Very relevantly, for example, his quote below is from
Q&A: with Douglas: Northern segregation:

Quote:
Author Brian Whitson, while writing a book about segregation in the north, had this to say in an interview:

I discovered a number of legal disputes in northern states during the first half of the 20th century involving school segregation. I had known that many northern communities had operated racially separate schools, but I had always assumed that such segregation was due to residential segregation. What I noticed in the NAACP archives, though, was that many northern towns segregated schoolchildren in a manner similar to southern towns, by establishing a white school for all of the town's white children and a "colored" school for all of the town's black children. Or by operating a single school with racially separate classrooms, racially separate playgrounds, and even racially separate American flags. The more I researched, the more examples I found of this kind of explicit segregation in the North.


And this is from Eyewitness to Jim Crow:

Quote:
Northern Illinois 1941

... our childhood was styled by a separation of coloreds and whites. Society did not question separate bathrooms or drinking fountains, because that's the way it was.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 05:28 pm
pstewart wrote:
Yes, you and I won't. We remember when the N-word was common and what it implied. BUT, if the word disappears, how will our grandchildren learn the horrors of racism before Dr. King's movement? If we sugarcoat history, we give our kids a false sense that things were better than they were.

And the gist of this thread, I thought, was to say these words have no place in today's social intercourse... which is correct. But how can this be stated without including the offensive words? Would you substitute "the n-word" and invent the phrase "c-word" instead? Would that honestly reflect the history of our society? No, the words SHOULD be shocking... they SHOULD cause our skin to crawl. That's the whole point. We must be reminded of what our country approved of in the past if we are to work toward a more civilized future.

I agree with this.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 05:36 pm
nimh wrote:
I agree with this.

We discussed all of this a lot before. I remembered I argued at length about why I agree with pstewart's exact point earlier - quite a bit earlier, an A2K search shows, some four years ago in the Shaq, Yao and Race thread.

This is what I wrote:

nimh wrote:
That's funny, sometimes everything comes together. I just read an article I'd come upon in the Guardian last week to Anastasia. Formally about affirmative action, the underlying point was about class in America. Decided to post a topic about it here on A2K. While looking up A2K and the Guardian on-line I found this thread here - and another article: "US grapples with its most hated word". The word in Q: "nigger".

Political correctness has, of course, impacted Western Europe greatly, too. I always get a bit on edge when it is again lambasted, and not just because it's such an easy target. It was, after all, born from a justified and overdue push to ban the callous insults of minority groups that had become or remained so organically part of society's ways as a whole, that they symbolised everything about a society in which some were denied the opportunities others had merely because of their colour, origin.

But on the other hand the particular American brand and stridency of political correctness has also always bemused me. So many astounding problems of segregation, poverty, racism, back in the 70s - 80s, when PC emerged, still mostly unparalleled in Western Europe - and then so much passion, so much anger, and eventually so much succesful policing, of speech and behavior, all focused on the mere expression - the outside - of these problems.

It rings a lot of bells for a European bystander - confirming prejudice or incomprehension about American culture. Why has all this passion be channeled in to policing form? When it's the content , if I may put it so B/W, that's clearly ridden with trauma? When society's structures, social, economic, cultural, still damn so much of a whole generation of African-Americans to neglect, discrimination and poverty, why then focus seemingly all the attention on the name, the word, the label that these problems of exclusion come bearing as their mask, when they face us on TV or in pop culture?

Is it - prejudice tells me - the American obsession with the surface, the impression, the image? Is it sublimation, driven by the fear instilled by acknowledging that the problem of racism goes so much deeper than swear words or boorish put downs? An acknowledgement that after all would threaten the belief that, fundamentally, the US are still the country where anyone can become anything he wants, if he tries enough? Is it a Puritan heritage - the tradition of social control over 'properness' in presentation and expression, as the overriding criterium of civilisation? Its near-superstitious respect for the Word, as the creator of our world?

Which cocktail of these elements have revived the Victorian impulse to cleanse ourselves of anything improper in appearance and expression as if, with that, sin would also be banished from the heart?

That's what I always stumble over in PC - this fundamentally hypocritical wishful thinking, as if, by hiding the word, the problem will dissapear? I'm using the phrase "the word" here deliberately because of that article I linked above, about the word "nigger", that just - astounded me - like examples of something you already know always do when they're stark enough.

It clearly shows where PC backfires, against its own causes even. Quote: "In Boston, one local newspaper banned the title of a play due to start next month called No Niggers, No Jews, No Dogs while other publications were considering whether to print its name. The Boston Metro ran the title in its advertising using blanks and asterisks." And: "a local councillor in Baltimore failed in his bid to ban the use of city money to buy reference books - including dictionaries - that contain racial slurs." And the example the article leads with: teacher Shannon Schumacher, who began a project with her students at a school in St Louis, Missouri, to teach them why the word "nigger" is offensive, and gave them a chapter from the book, Nigger: the Strange Career of a Troublesome Word by the black Harvard professor Randall Kennedy as homework. And was disciplined after an uproar of protest.

This is no longer redressing historical injustice by forcing people to conform to more just ways. This is a cover-up. America decides to undo its past by putting an embargo on talking about it. How can you teach your children about racism, if you can't show the example, can't lay it 'naked' on the dissecting table to expose it for what it is?

I believe that so much more could have been achieved if the anti-racists of the eighties and nineties had focused on attacking racist behaviour and structures rather than their mere reflection in the virtual reality of the spoken word. I agree with lash when he writes in this thread: "the revelation is not the problem-- the underlying racism is".

We had this little problem in Holland here last year called Fortuyn - you may have heard about it. He shocked all and sundry by saying out loud what for years was taboo - every night he would appear on his talkshow and say something that'd make you gasp - did he just say that? It won him a staggering 17% of the vote. He wouldn't have won half as much if in the years before, people would have been given a little more trust concerning their intentions or basic benevolence when they'd talked rough, and action would have simply and all the more consistently and clearly been taken against anyone who'd act in ways to harm or discriminate fellow citizens/humans.

There's a bit of rhetoric flourish in the above - I do know of the power labels can have, when perpetuated over generations or in onslaughts of its use in ways intended to alarm, incite - the former Yugoslavia gives some prime examples - and when somebody calls you a name that really hurts you, it may not seem so virtual. But my dumbfoundment [sp?] is real enough - the extent of PC, in combination with a seemingly relatively lacking awareness - or even willingness to hear - of how much deeper and more systemic the problem of racism could be - I don't get this combination.
0 Replies
 
 

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