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The Government In Charge of Our Entire Health-Care System?

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 06:46 pm
maporsche, my apologies, I changed my post simultaneous to your response to my previous content. I decided to drop the more saracasm, but yes I think the U.S. has been a leader in medical progress.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 06:47 pm
Acupuncture is coming more into vogue in western medicine; founded in China.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 06:49 pm
okie wrote:
maporsche, my apologies, I changed my post simultaneous to your response to my previous content. I decided to drop the more saracasm, but yes I think the U.S. has been a leader in medical progress.


Yeah I saw it changed, no problem though.

But you're question is a valid one, so I attempted to find the answer. What I found were the most of the medical progress has been international and not specific to the USA.

Were there any examples you were thinking of the help prove that "the U.S. has been a leader in medical progress."
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 07:00 pm
No expert here, but haven't we done alot with new transplant procedures and cancer treatments to name just a couple of areas? Also how about new medicines developed by U.S. Pharmaceutical companies? And to start with, we have some of the best medical schools anywhere in the world. I think Miller would be a good resource for the above information.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 07:19 pm
Thanks for the link, okie.

Let's have a look at the data and the map in the article:

http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/03/08/immigrant-map.jpg


The rates of people without insurance is, in fact, pretty high in counties along the border. Now, simplify things, let's assume that those people without health insurance are not more often in need of health care than people with health insurance. (I acknowledge that in some areas there might be a higher need for health care among immigrants, but it would be offset to a certain degree by the lower average age of that population.)

Then, let's assume that all those people without health insurance never pay a single cent for health care out of their own pockets. Let's assume all of the cost for their health care has to be shouldered by those who do pay into a health insurance.

(As McGentrix said earlier, the costs are not really offset by people paying health insurance, but via taxes - so let's also assume that those without health insurance never pay a single cent in taxes.)

Given those preconditions, that would mean that without those people who don't have health insurance, health care costs for the average American would be lower by the percentage of people without health insurance.


So, the OECD statistics pegged the per capita health care costs for Americans at $6,401. Let's subtract the complete 14.2 percent of all those people without health insurance - and you're left with per capita costs of $5,492.

Still the highest in the world. Still $2,733 above the OECD average.


(And all of that is not taking into account that there are not only immigrants, but also Americans without health insurance. And that immigrants might pay for some of their health care costs out of their own pockets. And that they might be paying at least some taxes, which would offset the costs on the ERs at least to some degree.)
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 07:23 pm
okie :
what we are talking about are pretty standard procedures , i believe .
the "outsourcing" seems to be mainly for such things as hip and knee replacements , re-surfacing and heart operations .
i don't believe that the indian doctors/hospitals are working on providing care for unusual medical conditions for foreign patients - but i don't know the whole story .
from the reports i've seen on TV , it seems that the patients were very satisfied with their treatments .
an example i recall , was a patient who said that she had a nurse stay at her bedside FULL-TIME until her recovery was complete . of course , nurses would not nearly have the salaries as in the U.S. ; she could probably pay for a full-time nurse easily in india .
this is not a knock against U.S. medical profession (or canadian or british) , but simply a fact of life : you have to go where you can get affordable care !
remember when most electronics were made in north-america - even canada had factories making TV's - , now it all comes from asia !
it's part of the "global economy" - and probably a good thing !
hbg
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 07:28 pm
hamburger wrote:
what we are talking about are pretty standard procedures , i believe .


hamburger, depends on what you would see as a "standard procedure". Again, from the website of University of Delaware:

Quote:
India has top-notch centers for open-heart surgery, pediatric heart surgery, hip and knee replacement, cosmetic surgery, dentistry, bone marrow transplants and cancer therapy, and virtually all of India's clinics are equipped with the latest electronic and medical diagnostic equipment.

Unlike many of its competitors in medical tourism, India also has the technological sophistication and infrastructure to maintain its market niche, and Indian pharmaceuticals meet the stringent requirements of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Additionally, India's quality of care is up to American standards, and some Indian medical centers even provide services that are uncommon elsewhere. For example, hip surgery patients in India can opt for a hip-resurfacing procedure, in which damaged bone is scraped away and replaced with chrome alloy--an operation that costs less and causes less post-operative trauma than the traditional replacement procedure performed in the U.S.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 07:34 pm
old europe wrote:

So, the OECD statistics pegged the per capita health care costs for Americans at $6,401. Let's subtract the complete 14.2 percent of all those people without health insurance - and you're left with per capita costs of $5,492.

Still the highest in the world. Still $2,733 above the OECD average.

Correct, but it did bring the amount down considerably, and we still need to consider legal visitors. As I saw in one of hamburger's posts, some Middle Eastern royalties used to rent whole floors of hospitals, and while they may be going to some other countries now, I still suspect there are a large number of wealthy visitors that come here for treatment. If money is no object to them, and they want the absolutely best treatment in the world, some centers in the U. S. may offer that, and I would still be curious as to how much that type of medical spending might amount to?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 07:45 pm
okie wrote:
Correct, but it did bring the amount down considerably, and we still need to consider legal visitors. As I saw in one of hamburger's posts, some Middle Eastern royalties used to rent whole floors of hospitals, and while they may be going to some other countries now, I still suspect there are a large number of wealthy visitors that come here for treatment. If money is no object to them, and they want the absolutely best treatment in the world, some centers in the U. S. may offer that, and I would still be curious as to how much that type of medical spending might amount to?


Have been talking with my brother today. He said that in the hospital he works, they have those VIP floors. Nobody can get in without special ID cards, not even the hospital personnel, unless they have special authorization.

Inside looks like a luxurious hotel. You don't see any people dressed in white. Rather, you have a reception desk... and generally just all the things you would expect in a hotel. If you've made it past that point, you might occasionally see a nurse or a doctor, but that's really all.

He also said that all the signs were in German, English and Arabic.

Gives you a hint, doesn't it?


(Sorry, anecdotal, I know. Would like to find an article or something about that..... Plus, I'd really like to see that.)
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 08:16 pm
okie wrote :

Quote:
I still suspect there are a large number of wealthy visitors that come here for treatment


from what i understand , it's not easy to get a visa if you are from a middle-eastern country - even if you are rich !
and those people from the m.e. countries were the ones with money looking for health care !

old europe :
i'm sure , indian hospitals are well equipped for all kinds of medical procedures .
still , the bulk of "off-shore" med treatment seems to be for "standard" procedures .
with more complicated medical procedures there would be the added difficulty of patient transport - though i'm sure it could be done .

i have noticed that patients from underdeveloped countries (children in particular) are sometimes brought to canada and the U.S. to receive free treatment for difficult medical procedures , such as separation of conjoined twins . often canadian and U.S. service clubs will underwrite some of the costs .

getting back to "standard" medical procedures done overseas , it seems that the global economy - FREE TRADE - does provide benefits all around !
patients get treatments at affordable cost - the foreign hospitals are earning additional revenues !
too bad if someone is REALLY poor ; he'd probably have to see the local healer/medicine man !
hbg
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 09:11 pm
I've always been a "free trade" advocate. I learned about commpetitive advantage in school, and understand it benefits everybody.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 06:49 am
'Free trade' is al well but no other developed country besides the USA lacks universal health coverage, and others that spend considerably less on health care, such as Britain, Canada, France, Germany ... ... ... achieve better results, including greater average longevity.

(Looking through some sources I found as a by-product that the United States "is the only advanced economy in the world that does not guarantee its workers paid vacation". [source: Center for Economic and Policy Research.])
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 10:19 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
'Free trade' is al well but no other developed country besides the USA lacks universal health coverage, and others that spend considerably less on health care, such as Britain, Canada, France, Germany ... ... ... achieve better results, including greater average longevity.

(Looking through some sources I found as a by-product that the United States "is the only advanced economy in the world that does not guarantee its workers paid vacation". [source: Center for Economic and Policy Research.])


We Americans must be a funny lot, as most of us absolutely hate the Government telling us what to do over and over again and that includes how American medicine should function adn be practiced.

Sometimes you wonder if the Feds know their ass from a hole in the ground. Take for example the recent decision to allow the FDA to regulate the tobacco industry in the U.S.A. Sounds good doesn't it? Ha...but the catch is that Altria ( MO ) will be
the co-regulator of the tobacco industry...

Case of the fox guarding the hen house... Crying or Very sad
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 10:32 am
Canada is backwards in some regards, that's for sure.

For example, a naturopath is not covered under the provincial medical plan, nor are midwives (to my knowledge), accupuncturists, certain chiropractitioners, massage therapists, etc... But what's really mind-boggling is neither are mental health practitioners - can you believe that mental disorders are not covered under the medical system?

I would rather go to someone practising alternative and/or preventative medicine than a conventionally-trained doctor; unfortunately, if I have no money, I have no choice.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 10:40 am
Miller wrote:
We Americans must be a funny lot, as most of us absolutely hate the Government telling us what to do over and over again and that includes how American medicine should function adn be practiced.


Well, you must be a particularly funny lot if you hate the government telling you what to do and at the same time praise the Commonwealth of Massachusetts forcing its citizens to purchase health insurance.


(doublethink: The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.)
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 12:51 pm
Mame wrote:
Canada is backwards in some regards, that's for sure.

For example, a naturopath is not covered under the provincial medical plan, nor are midwives (to my knowledge), accupuncturists, certain chiropractitioners, massage therapists, etc... But what's really mind-boggling is neither are mental health practitioners - can you believe that mental disorders are not covered under the medical system?

I would rather go to someone practising alternative and/or preventative medicine than a conventionally-trained doctor; unfortunately, if I have no money, I have no choice.

Yes, I think we should all have the taxpayers pay for our visits to the witch doctor too. It should all be equal opportunity waste of taxpayers money. Some of what you list in the above might be credible, but some are certainly doubtful.
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 01:16 pm
Old Europe
If you think about it a bit you might come to realize that doublethinking is a common trend among most people. Look back on the a2k sites and you will see that it is quite common even among people who are considered very intelligent.
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 01:21 pm
Mame wrote:
Canada is backwards in some regards, that's for sure.

For example, a naturopath is not covered under the provincial medical plan, nor are midwives (to my knowledge), accupuncturists, certain chiropractitioners, massage therapists, etc... But what's really mind-boggling is neither are mental health practitioners - can you believe that mental disorders are not covered under the medical system?

I would rather go to someone practising alternative and/or preventative medicine than a conventionally-trained doctor; unfortunately, if I have no money, I have no choice.


So if you have a mental disorder or disease, does this mean you have to pay cash for your treatment?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 01:22 pm
okie wrote:
Mame wrote:
Canada is backwards in some regards, that's for sure.

For example, a naturopath is not covered under the provincial medical plan, nor are midwives (to my knowledge), accupuncturists, certain chiropractitioners, massage therapists, etc... But what's really mind-boggling is neither are mental health practitioners - can you believe that mental disorders are not covered under the medical system?

I would rather go to someone practising alternative and/or preventative medicine than a conventionally-trained doctor; unfortunately, if I have no money, I have no choice.

Yes, I think we should all have the taxpayers pay for our visits to the witch doctor too. It should all be equal opportunity waste of taxpayers money. Some of what you list in the above might be credible, but some are certainly doubtful.


No, not a single one is doubtful and most if not all are covered by major insurance plans in the USA.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Aug, 2007 01:27 pm
maporsche wrote:
okie wrote:
maporsche, my apologies, I changed my post simultaneous to your response to my previous content. I decided to drop the more saracasm, but yes I think the U.S. has been a leader in medical progress.


Yeah I saw it changed, no problem though.

But you're question is a valid one, so I attempted to find the answer. What I found were the most of the medical progress has been international and not specific to the USA.

Were there any examples you were thinking of the help prove that "the U.S. has been a leader in medical progress."


Yes, the first artificial urinary bladder was synthesized and created in the USA, right here in Boston.
0 Replies
 
 

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