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The Government In Charge of Our Entire Health-Care System?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 01:24 am
Infos on Dr. Glatzer
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 01:34 am
Mame wrote:
No kidding, me either!! I think we're being maligned, Montana! Bunch'a hosers!
Take off, eh? (Miller doesn't speak for me)(though the Champagne of Beers does on occasion :wink:).
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 06:56 am
Laughing
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 06:58 am
Miller wrote:
old europe wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
greed based healthcare


Hey! What a nice, descriptive term, ebrown! I like that.....



Where's the "greed"? :wink:



Where's the greed? Uhm.... it's the basis of a profit driven health insurance model? You know, the last time it came up you kinda sounded like you agreed with that premise, and that it was a good thing, at that...


Miller, in [URL=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2766934#2766934]another thread on health care she started[/URL], wrote:
Montana wrote:
Greed is quite ugly, in my opinion!


Greed probably played a major role in the development of the USA as a rich and powerful nation... same as England and her other colonies, wounldn't you say?
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 08:22 am
Health care is just one part of an overall Public Health system. The government is responsible for public health. Since public health needs to include all aspects of society, this is one of the things for which government is best suited.

The American profit-driven system is clearly failing at public health.

Providing quick doctors appointments for wealthy people who aren't too sick may be an example of health care.

But a civilized, developed country should provide much more for its citizens.
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 08:54 am
OLD EUROPE QUOTE: Where's the greed? Uhm.... it's the basis of a profit driven health insurance model?

I asked "WHERE IS THE GREED", not WHAT IS GREED... Cool
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 09:11 am
Mame wrote:
No kidding, me either!! I think we're being maligned, Montana! Bunch'a hosers!


Yeah, no kidding Shocked
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jul, 2007 09:28 am
Miller,
I'm sorry, but I can't take doctors seriously in this matter because it's all about the $$$.

Kinda like politicians, I'll believe it when I see it ;-)

Brought a co-worker to the ER last year when she got something in her eye. Was only a piece of packing foam and was not even close to an emergency, yet they took her right away and we were out of there in 10 minutes.

Maybe there are longer waiting times in other areas of Canada, but I've yet to hear any complaints from the Canadians here.

When I hear it from people other than doctors, then I may change my thoughts on this issue.

Still waiting!
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 10:50 am
Good news about the wait time crisis in Canada:

1. Canada has been inching towards a two-tier system ever since their Supreme Court ruled that it is unconstitutional to prohibit patients from buying private health insurance. As more lawsuits are forwarded across the country, more private clinics and hospitals will spring up, taking some of the pressure off the government funded facilities. Eventually, their system will more closely resemble what we have here in the U.S. (something Michael Moore ignores while praising the Canadian healthcare model).

2. All provinces and territories have now signed onto the Guaranteed Wait Times program which will be fully effective by 2010. Established wait times that are not met will result in patients offered alternatives such as transferring to another facility, another province or even out of the country - all paid for by the government. This will probably be very expensive, but Canadians are used to paying high taxes.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 11:14 am
HokieBird wrote:
1. Canada has been inching towards a two-tier system ever since their Supreme Court ruled that it is unconstitutional to prohibit patients from buying private health insurance. As more lawsuits are forwarded across the country, more private clinics and hospitals will spring up, taking some of the pressure off the government funded facilities. Eventually, their system will more closely resemble what we have here in the U.S. (something Michael Moore ignores while praising the Canadian healthcare model).


I would say that a universal health care system that is not a single payer system, but rather allows for combining or choosing between statutory or state health insurance and private health insurance companies resembles more the Dutch, Swiss, Austrian or German model than the American model (which is simply not a universal health care model).


HokieBird wrote:
This will probably be very expensive, but Canadians are used to paying high taxes.


They are also used to per capita health care costs that are about half as high as those in the US. Chances are that even if they implement some really expensive measures, they will still pay significantly less for their health care than Americans.
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 11:24 am
Edit: Just saw same article - different thread.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 11:29 am
Oh, we're back at comparing health care systems by looking at anecdotes again, are we? Yeah, that's a good yardstick.

In fact, let me link you to this anecdote that Miller posted a while ago. Maybe we can get a huge collection of anecdotal evidence like that. And let me also link you to the exact same story, posted by McGentrix on this thread over here...
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 11:29 am
HokieBird wrote:
Edit: Just saw same article - different thread.


Good.
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HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 11:47 am
old europe wrote:
Oh, we're back at comparing health care systems by looking at anecdotes again, are we? Yeah, that's a good yardstick.

In fact, let me link you to this anecdote that Miller posted a while ago. Maybe we can get a huge collection of anecdotal evidence like that. And let me also link you to the exact same story, posted by McGentrix on this thread over here...


Well, have you also complained about those posting their anecdotal evidence that there aren't any wait times? I think the lawsuit story is informative because it tells us that there will be some major changes in Canada's health care program.

As I understand it, the Supreme Court's ruling affects only Quebec, which now can allow private clinics on a limited basis. For the rest of Canada, I believe it's still illegal to operate in the private sector.

The Canadian Medical Association seems to think there are problems that need to be addressed:

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/health/070730/x073006A.html
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 12:03 pm
HokieBird wrote:
Well, have you also complained about those posting their anecdotal evidence that there aren't any wait times?


No, I haven't. But if you followed the numerous threads on the topic, you will have noticed that people posted their positive anecdotal evidence in reply to people posting devastating anecdotal evidence that the Canadian system was <ahem> merely days away from a total collapse.

You may call this an exercise in futility, and we can probably all agree that you can find horrible stories where the system miserably failed patients from almost any country, but it will lead us nowhere.


HokieBird wrote:
I think the lawsuit story is informative because it tells us that there will be some major changes in Canada's health care program.


Yes. Good for them. Studies have in fact shown that among countries with universal health care systems, no matter whether those were single payer systems or not, the Canadian system does have some problems.

Surprisingly, those studies have also shown that the Canadian system is still a bit better than the American one. So if Canadians are now working to improve their system, more power to them.


HokieBird wrote:
As I understand it, the Supreme Court's ruling affects only Quebec, which now can allow private clinics on a limited basis. For the rest of Canada, I believe it's still illegal to operate in the private sector.


We will see what this will result in. I'm not at all opposed to a privately operated system, as long as it can provide universal health care coverage. Chances are that some level of government regulation will be necessary to achieve that goal, though.


HokieBird wrote:
The Canadian Medical Association seems to think there are problems that need to be addressed:

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/health/070730/x073006A.html


Oh yes. Analysing the problems is the first step towards improving the system, isn't it? And contracting the private sector to deliver publicly funded health care services doesn't seem to be such a bad solution at all.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 01:13 pm
I agree that there are simply TOO many posts generated with the same topic.....make 1 thread and we'll discuss it for months, this is just getting messy Miller.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 01:33 pm
Since we are comparing anecdotes at least I have some experience with both Canadian and US emergency rooms for minor work related injuries. I really saw little difference between them.

In Edmonton, I had to get stitches and it took about 2 hours from leaving the job site until I was back at it. That included the time to fill out paperwork and pay for the medical assistance since I wasn't a Canadian citizen.

In Milwaukee it took about 4 hours before I was back at the job site.

In St Paul, I spent about 2 hours waiting for a Dr to look at a puncture wound and get a tetanus shot. That visit was in some ways a view of the American health care system. The guy next to me had broken his ankle a week before and not come in until that day. It was horribly swollen and the doctor told him they would now have to rebreak it to set it properly.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 01:57 pm
For such, I wouldn't go to the hospital but let it be done in either my family doctor's or the local chirugian's surgery: would last longer than 10 minutes (as opposite to the hospital, where it might take more than half an hour).
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 08:09 pm
General Practitioners don't do anything here anymore except diagnose and refer... And they HAVE to see you and your problem before a referral, even though it may be obvious to everyone... I remember getting a ganglion syst removed in the Dr's office in 1969 - today, if you have a mole, your GP has to refer you (once it has been confirmed that it is indeed a mole), then you go to a dermatologist, plastic surgeon, or someone else.

The waste is what's wrong with our medical system - at least, a big part of it - why not get a nurse to look at the mole and refer? Cheaper.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jul, 2007 09:04 pm
maporsche wrote:
I agree that there are simply TOO many posts generated with the same topic.....make 1 thread and we'll discuss it for months, this is just getting messy Miller.


I have seen too many posts regarding the Iraq war. I think they should be limited to one thread as well.
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