0
   

Indications are that we'll win, but there's one little thing

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 05:48 am
Finn's posts on this subject are altogether weird, but I'll just pick out one thing to comment on for now:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
And Obama is a nice non-threatening cafe au lait shade with (better still) thin lips who white liberals can better embrace without confrontation with their denied racism.


These don't look particularly thin to me:

http://www.news.uiuc.edu/ii/04/0805/obama,barack_w.jpg.png

Certainly not so much thinner than good old "wholly black" (what?) Jesse Jackson's:

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/050903/n_jackson_race_050903.300w.jpg

Nor does his skin color seem much different from Jackson's.

In case you say it's about lighting or something, here are the two of them together:

http://obamarama.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/jackson_obama.jpg

Note: In case it needs saying, I think size of lips and color of skin are both entirely irrelevant. I'm just pointing out that whatever claims Finn is making along those lines are not even accurate.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 07:08 am
It really is (not sarcasm) big of you Soz, to even try to conjure a measured reply to Finn's lunacy.

I was going to say something about being able to get a good idea of how Obama is "widely seen" by just having him stand a few feet from any similarly dressed white guy and see who can hail a cab first...

but it seemed about like reading James Baldwin to Jesse Helms... fruitless.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 08:24 am
snood wrote:
It really is (not sarcasm) big of you Soz, to even try to conjure a measured reply to Finn's lunacy.

I was going to say something about being able to get a good idea of how Obama is "widely seen" by just having him stand a few feet from any similarly dressed white guy and see who can hail a cab first...

but it seemed about like reading James Baldwin to Jesse Helms... fruitless.

My God snood, are you implying that as a black person you can read better than Jesse Helms.

OK, so Helms has dementia, but still, we know Helms is "white".

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to see if I can get past the Secret Service to test your "hailing a cab" theory.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 08:57 am
You're joking. You are joking, right? Sorry, I just did 24 hour 'administrative officer of the day' duty at the hospital, and I ain't firin' on all eight.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 10:17 am
snood wrote:
You're joking. You are joking, right?
You are firing on all 12.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 03:51 pm
sozobe wrote:
blatham wrote:
I think that's an unfair assessment of her character and motivations, snood. And after all, it isn't as if she has no familiarity with having someone else close to her who packs more "thunder" than her.


...and it could easily be argued that the fact that Bill packs so much thunder rankles and has rankled for quite a while, and that she wouldn't knowingly go into such a situation if she could help it. (It's far more dangerous to separate herself from Bill at this point than to never join forces with Obama...)

I don't want her to get the nomination, but if she DOES, I'm not sure what I'd want. I want Obama in the White House, and poised to become president after her -- but I think a Hillary/ Obama ticket would have an even worse chance than a Hillary/most anyone else ticket, and I want the Democrats to win. Too many of the same positives and too many of the same negatives. Edwards could possibly work, but I think it would have to be someone outside of the top three, someone older and with scads of experience (Hillary's first lady experience is of limited import).


Perhaps I'm missing what it is you are trying to tell me in that first paragraph. But I don't know who would find that proposed argument "easy". Has she said something, or behaved in some manner, that demonstates she is "rankled" by Bill's superior PR skills and charm? What evidence is there that gets you to any such conclusion about her inner mental states?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 03:56 pm
I don't think it's all that analytical an opinion. I think it's not a big stretch to imagine that anyone living with Bill Clinton's ego and obsession with the limelight could get rankled, and not opt for as attention-monopolizing a personality for a running-mate, if she had her druthers.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 04:00 pm
OK.

So let's propose this example. Imagine it works out such that Obama gets the nomination, then chooses Hillary as his runningmate.

Do you suppose he would be "rankled" by her greater experience and competence in foreign affairs?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 04:03 pm
Another way to put that...

Do you consider it likely that Obama's wife is "rankled" by his PR skills and charm?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 05:24 pm
blatham wrote:
Another way to put that...

Do you consider it likely that Obama's wife is "rankled" by his PR skills and charm?


I think that'd be stretching credibility a bit and missing the point entirely. Obama's wife isn't trying to be the center of public attention or running for public office. When they go out in public together the crowd doesn't show up to see her nor does she get coverage in major news outlets every time she steps out of her house.

Bill, on the other hand, gets it whether he (or Hillary!) wants it or not. People go to events specifically to see Bill - even if it is one of Hillary's campaign events.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 05:36 pm
fishin wrote:
blatham wrote:
Another way to put that...

Do you consider it likely that Obama's wife is "rankled" by his PR skills and charm?


I think that'd be stretching credibility a bit and missing the point entirely. Obama's wife isn't trying to be the center of public attention or running for public office. When they go out in public together the crowd doesn't show up to see her nor does she get coverage in major news outlets every time she steps out of her house.

Bill, on the other hand, gets it whether he (or Hillary!) wants it or not. People go to events specifically to see Bill - even if it is one of Hillary's campaign events.


For this to corrollate to the proposed Clinton/Obama ticket, you would have to believe that people would show up just to hear Obama, putting Hillary in the shade. I don't think she's too worried about that.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 05:53 pm
This was recently highlighted in the long New Yorker article about Bill -- I can go find it for quotes, am just here for a minute for the time being. I may be folding in some of what I've gleaned from book reviews of the two recent books about her.

But generally speaking, Hillary had ambitions, big ambitions, before she ever met Bill. She was voted "most likely to become president of the US" by her university classmates, or something like that. She didn't want to use his last name -- she was browbeaten into doing that. She didn't want to live in Arkansas. She didn't want to bake cookies. There are all kinds of concessions she's made on Bill's behalf, and there has been quite a lot out there (from reputable sources) about how it's bothered her to be in the background as he does all the big stuff and gets all the adulation, in and of itself.

Then separately, there is the idea (this is less supportable I think but is nonetheless my impression) that it's annoying for her that he is so effortlessly charismatic, so easily connects with people and makes the huge speeches, and she's so stilted and cold by comparison. (Of course, most anyone is stilted and cold by comparison to Bill, but she provides many more opportunities for such comparison than most.)

So I do think that she'd balk a bit at the idea of sharing a ticket with someone who similarly makes her suffer by comparison (though Obama's charisma-meter wavers, sometimes he's ON and sometimes he's eh). I don't think that, even if that's the case, though, that would be THE reason she'd choose not to go with him. I think either of those two -- Hillary or Obama -- would be well-served to choose a running mate who has a lot of experience, and I think they both know that. I don't really see them sharing a ticket, either direction.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 06:59 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
fishin wrote:
blatham wrote:
Another way to put that...

Do you consider it likely that Obama's wife is "rankled" by his PR skills and charm?


I think that'd be stretching credibility a bit and missing the point entirely. Obama's wife isn't trying to be the center of public attention or running for public office. When they go out in public together the crowd doesn't show up to see her nor does she get coverage in major news outlets every time she steps out of her house.

Bill, on the other hand, gets it whether he (or Hillary!) wants it or not. People go to events specifically to see Bill - even if it is one of Hillary's campaign events.


For this to corrollate to the proposed Clinton/Obama ticket, you would have to believe that people would show up just to hear Obama, putting Hillary in the shade. I don't think she's too worried about that.

Cycloptichorn


There wasn't any attempt to correlate it to any proposed Clinton/Obama ticket. It was a direct comparison of Barrack Obama and his wife vs. Hillary and Bill.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 07:00 pm
fishin wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
fishin wrote:
blatham wrote:
Another way to put that...

Do you consider it likely that Obama's wife is "rankled" by his PR skills and charm?


I think that'd be stretching credibility a bit and missing the point entirely. Obama's wife isn't trying to be the center of public attention or running for public office. When they go out in public together the crowd doesn't show up to see her nor does she get coverage in major news outlets every time she steps out of her house.

Bill, on the other hand, gets it whether he (or Hillary!) wants it or not. People go to events specifically to see Bill - even if it is one of Hillary's campaign events.


For this to corrollate to the proposed Clinton/Obama ticket, you would have to believe that people would show up just to hear Obama, putting Hillary in the shade. I don't think she's too worried about that.

Cycloptichorn


There wasn't any attempt to correlate it to any proposed Clinton/Obama ticket. It was a direct comparison of Barrack Obama and his wife vs. Hillary and Bill.


Yeah, I know - but that's where this conversation thread came from in the first place.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 10:13 am
fishin wrote:
blatham wrote:
Another way to put that...

Do you consider it likely that Obama's wife is "rankled" by his PR skills and charm?


I think that'd be stretching credibility a bit and missing the point entirely. Obama's wife isn't trying to be the center of public attention or running for public office. When they go out in public together the crowd doesn't show up to see her nor does she get coverage in major news outlets every time she steps out of her house.

Bill, on the other hand, gets it whether he (or Hillary!) wants it or not. People go to events specifically to see Bill - even if it is one of Hillary's campaign events.


But take this example in tandem with the preceding one I offered. My point is that where folks can be very quick to suppose some level of rather petty envy on the part of Hillary, they are not so quick to jump there re Obama. And frankly, I see no proper justification for such assumptions.

My sincere wish is that Obama gains the nomination and then the Presidency. It isn't that I consider he will be a more effective executor of the post than Hillary would be. My money would be on her as regards that important element but he looks to have the intelligence, curiosity and humility which could make him a great executive too. My preference for him arises from my perception of his potential to inspire and reinvigorate politics in the US...to replace the mean-spiritedness and divisiveness of the last two decades or more with something more inclusive, open, just, charitable and democratic.

But we'd better acknowledge that the right has built up, over that same period of time, a very effective and pervasive (and highly ideological) organization which will vigorously resist any democratic government. They will, I think it is certain, attempt to do to Obama (if president) what they set out to do with Clinton...derogate, demean and thwart (see Bill Kristol's memo of the period forwarding a strategy of stopping Hillary's medicare initiative PRECISELY because, if it succeeded, it would gain the dems a level of popularity that would make future republican electoral gains very difficult to achieve...in plain english, phuck citizens' health and well-being, we want power.)

That campaign directed its attacks squarely at Hillary. "Who elected her?" was a prime talking point as if cabinets and white house offices aren't filled with appointees (Rove, Feith, Wolfowitz, etc etc). And the undercurrent to this campaign utilized common sentiments regarding the "inappropriateness" of women in power...such "ambition" on the part of a woman shows she doesn't know her place...she's verging on the pathological.

And a lot of you folks have bought this narrative (forwarded by a media system which itself thrives on such shallow and spoon-feedable notions) and it really pisses me off, to be honest.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 10:20 am
soz

Re a Hillary/Obama ticket...

I think you are dead wrong. If Hillary gets the nomination, then if she fails to avail herself of all the immense goodwill and activism and hopefulness (and money) that Obama and his organization have created, then she'd be a fool of tragic proportion. And assuming she is advised by Bill, so would he be a huge fool. I truly doubt either are that stupid or that petty.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 10:30 am
blatham wrote:
And a lot of you folks have bought this narrative (forwarded by a media system which itself thrives on such shallow and spoon-feedable notions) and it really pisses me off, to be honest.


I really get this. Maybe you need to be based outside of the U.S. to really see it. I've had to give up on the New Yorker in particular because of the changes in what they cover and how they cover. Too many editorial changes over the past decade don't seem to have been healthy for the mag.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 10:44 am
Blatham said...

Quote:
That campaign directed its attacks squarely at Hillary. "Who elected her?" was a prime talking point as if cabinets and white house offices aren't filled with appointees (Rove, Feith, Wolfowitz, etc etc).


What you are forgetting about that time is that Hillary was NOT part of the administration, elected or otherwise.
That is what the right was complaining about, her trying to set policy when she wasnt in the govt at all.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 10:46 am
mysteryman wrote:
Blatham said...

Quote:
That campaign directed its attacks squarely at Hillary. "Who elected her?" was a prime talking point as if cabinets and white house offices aren't filled with appointees (Rove, Feith, Wolfowitz, etc etc).


What you are forgetting about that time is that Hillary was NOT part of the administration, elected or otherwise.
That is what the right was complaining about, her trying to set policy when she wasnt in the govt at all.


What's the difference between a President appointing someone to give him advice, and taking advice from someone he didn't appoint?

This 'surge' strategy was created in whole by the American Enterprise Institute. A bunch of people who weren't elected or appointed ARE setting our policy. I don't hear you complaining about this.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 10:48 am
[quote="Cycloptichorn
This 'surge' strategy was created in whole by the American Enterprise Institute. A bunch of people who weren't elected or appointed ARE setting our policy. I don't hear you complaining about this.

Cycloptichorn[/quote]

I hadnt heard that.
IF and I stress IF,it is correct then I will say it is wrong.
0 Replies
 
 

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