25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 06:29 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
This thread is now on page 259, so discussing this subject at A2K has not been difficult.

the voicing of any opinion that does not jive with yours has been incredibly difficult, all opposing opinions have been the subject of extensive derision and claims that the speaker is flawed and thus should be ignored. If I am not mistaken idiot Bill has told me a couple of times that I should kill myself, and he has made repeated requests over many months to the admins that I be banned from a2k for speaking out on this subject in particular.

Your alternate reality claim that discussing this subject has not been difficult, especially after you yourself have been the cause of much of this difficulty, is one of multiple reasons I don't find you in the least bit credible.

And let us not forget the first time that I tried to talk about this subject on a2k, where I was subjected to mob action. It certainly does get easier to have this discussion as others besides me demand to be heard, but I have no illusions that the taboo against objecting to women's claims of victim-hood has been so easily dispensed with.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 06:35 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I have found that the women who are more in touch with their erotic selves, particularly those who have experienced the power of the erotic through rape and thus can not ignore it


You obviously think rape must be a sexually arousing pleasurable experience--a positive experience.

Rape generally occurs when the woman is not lubricated and it is, therefore. a generally painful and unpleasant experience simply on a physical level.

Cite me one study on rape victims--and there are many studies--where the victims described experiencing "the power of the erotic through rape".

The one study in this area, that you yourself posted in this thread, described significant negative emotional and psychological effects following both acknowledged and unacknowledged rapes.

Did the three rape victims who have posted in this thread report experiencing "the power of the erotic" as the result of their rapes?

Why don't males who are raped report experiencing "the power of the erotic"?

Your thinking really is affected by your involvement with BDSM.


firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 06:36 pm
@Ionus,
We are discussing actual rapes, not false allegations of rape.
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 06:40 pm
@firefly,
Again, what about the cases of consensual sex where the woman cries rape if the guy doesnt pull out fast enough.

How can that be rape by any definition?
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 06:49 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
We are discussing actual rapes, not false allegations of rape.
How will you be distinguishing them ?
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 06:51 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
We are discussing actual rapes, not false allegations of rape.
It seems to me that if a man is locked up for a crime he didnt commit that has a large bearing on your discusion of the crime.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 06:51 pm
@mysteryman,
quote]The problem is, there are many places that teach that all men are actual or potential rapists.
That seems to me to indicate that women are being taught to consider all sex rape, and thats wrong also.[/quote]

No, the material you posted links to does not support that view. They simply reiterate the rape laws of the state in which the campus is located.

Quote:

Types of Rape
People who are forced to have sexual contact against their will are victims of sexual assault. If the assault involves penetration, it is rape. Two types of rape are: Acquaintance Rape- rape by someone the victim knows. (This type of rape occurs most often.) Stranger Rape- rape by someone unknown to the victim. (This is the type you tend to hear about in the news.)
http://www.suno.edu/Campus_Police/prevention.html


That was your link. Where does that say, or suggest, that all sex is rape? Rape is non consensual sex.
[/quote]

All men are not potential rapists. But, since a female cannot tell who is a potential rapist, she is urged to take certain precautions and self protective measure, particularly with someone she just met.

Quote:
So the claim that rape in an act of violence and that only men are responsible is not completely true.


In all states I am aware of, rape is catagorized as a sexual assault--the amount of violence may vary considerably, but an assault is a violent act.

Men are responsible for rapes, of both women and other men, over 90% of the time.




firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 06:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
You get subjected to derision and anger because people do not agree with your views.

But no one stops you from expressing your opinions. You haven't shut up on this thread.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 06:58 pm
@firefly,
It's not really his views that anger me so much. It's the fact that he continuously states the opposition's views are nothing but BS, made up, etc.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 07:00 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Again, what about the cases of consensual sex where the woman cries rape if the guy doesnt pull out fast enough.

How can that be rape by any definition?


Other than that single case in Maryland, are you aware of any other rape convictions under similar circumstances?

And, as I recall, didn't the female in Maryland claim she was in physical pain and distress, which is why she wanted the man to pull out?

Hypothetically, if a woman asks a man to withdraw, because she is in pain, and it takes him several minutes to do so, what would you think about that?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 07:04 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You obviously think rape must be a sexually arousing pleasurable experience--a positive experience
For some it is, we are well aware than a sizable percentage of women orgasm during rape...but that was not my point. My point was that those who have experienced erotic power through rape for the most part dont buy into the Feminist bullshit claim that sex and power are not connected. A great many go on to play with erotic power, having been touched by it their is not putting the Genie back into the bottle. And yes, In BDSM I come across a lot of women who have at some point in life been abused sexually, and for whom sexual power play in a itch that they need to scratch.

In August MSNBC reported on the study "Shame and Guilt in the Aftermath of Sexual Attack" which claims that 90% of women orgasm during rape. As can be expected MSNBC took down the page, because we certainly can not have that bit of information floating around. Much better for women who experience orgasmic pleasure during rape to feel guilty about it, like there is something wrong with them.

I am not 100% sure, but I think that with many the main fascination is that a someone violating them and doing something that they really hate also gets them to cum. It is quite a mind ****, one that many women want to experience again, but on a more consensual basis than the original straight up rape.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 07:11 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Quote: firefly
We are discussing actual rapes, not false allegations of rape.


Quote:
How will you be distinguishing them ?


You really only know that allegation is false if the complainant has admitted to lying, or cross-examination reveals significant inconsistencies, or if no sex actually took place.

There are also false allegations made by the police and by D.A.'s--these are generally revealed as a result of later investigation.

No one here wants to see anyone, ever, falsely accused of any crime.

But, the topic of this thread is not false allegations--it is the crime of rape. How many men falsely allege that an actual rape was consensual sex?

The issue of men's rights is a worthy topic and deserving of it's own thread.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 07:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

we are well aware than a sizable percentage of women orgasm during rape


Well, I'm not "well aware" of that. Please cite a source to verify that assumption, not just a reference to some MSNBC program with a missing Web page.

mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 07:22 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
In all states I am aware of, rape is catagorized as a sexual assault--the amount of violence may vary considerably, but an assault is a violent act.


Then you didnt read the article I linked to.
It quite clearly showed that there are 7 states where its considered rape if the man doesnt pull out fast enough if she changes her mind DURING consensual sex.
Of course, it doesnt define what "fast enough" is.

Quote:
And, as I recall, didn't the female in Maryland claim she was in physical pain and distress, which is why she wanted the man to pull out?


No, thats not what she claimed.
Reread the article.

And you say thats just one case.
Thats just one case, that we know of.
Tell me, how many cases like that will it take to matter to you?
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 07:30 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Of course, it doesnt define what "fast enough" is
Bill and I were early in the thread talking about a case where 9 seconds just as he was coming was good enough for a rape conviction.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 07:48 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Please cite a source to verify that assumption
Sep Journal of Clinical Psychiatry "Shame and Guilt in the Aftermath of Sexual Attack". I half expect that they deleted it off their site as well, as they broke a major rape feminist demand by publishing this study. 90% sounds a little high, but not by much. I am guessing that they included child rape victims.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 08:27 pm
@mysteryman,
We have discussed that Maryland case earlier in this thread, which is why I correctly remembered that the woman claimed to be in pain and that was why she asked him to withdraw.

That conviction was overturned by the Maryland Supreme Court because of the instructions to the jury and they ordered a new trial for the defendant. I can find no evidence that Maouloud Baby was ever re-tried for rape. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maouloud_Baby_v._State_of_Maryland

Also, I find that only one state, Illinois, defines continued penetration after wiithdrawal of consent as rape.
Quote:
Illinois is the only state that has changed its statute outright to define continued penetration after withdrawal of consent as rape. Called the “No Means No” Act, it read: “a person who initially consents to a sexual penetration or sexual conduct that occurs after he or she withdraws consent during the course of that sexual penetration or sexual conduct,” (ibid.) It was introduced into the Illinois State House of Representatives, and was signed into law in July, 2003 (ibid.) http://hubpages.com/hub/Rape-and-the-Law


In seven other states, continued penetration after withdrawal of consent was considered rape by the higher courts in those states, and that was on a case by case basis, and it is not codified in the rape statutes of those states.

So, it is only in Illinois that it is part of the rape law, and I can't even find any post penetration cases that were actually tried under that law.

If, after penetration, a woman repeatedly asks a man to withdraw, and five minutes later he still has not withdrawn, what would you consider it? Should it take 5 or more minutes, after consent is withdrawn, for a man to terminate the act?

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 08:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Sep Journal of Clinical Psychiatry "Shame and Guilt in the Aftermath of Sexual Attack". I half expect that they deleted it off their site as well, as they broke a major rape feminist demand by publishing this study.


Allegedly, the article was to be published in the September 2010 issue of the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, but the article did not appear in that journal. Scientific journals do not cave in to pressure from "rape feminists", or anyone else, once they have accepted and slated papers for publication. And, apparently the news about publication of this study allegedly appeared on only the MSNBC Web site (if it ever appeared even there). Certainly, news of publication of such a study would have hit more media outlets than just MSNBC--this would have been rather big news, given the alleged startling findings.

What is even more interesting, there appears to be no Dr. Herschel Liebowitz (who was identified as a co-author of the alleged study) who is either a psychiatrist, or any other professional who would have contact with sexual assault victims, or who has done any research at all in that area. There is a psychologist with a similar name, but his area was visual perception and he retired professionally about 15 years ago.

I suspect that the report of this alleged study, which appears on no reputable Web sites, was a hoax.

There is nothing to substantiate the fact that the study ever existed.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 09:14 pm
Oprah Winfrey has done a wonderful thing to help male victims of sexual abuse by hosting two recent programs on that topic. This man, a survivor of abuse, appeared as a guest in the audience on one of them.
Quote:

1 in 6
of all males said to be victims of sexual abuse
By SARAH DEETH , EXAMINER STAFF WRITER
Posted 8 days ago

Jim Austin counts himself as a "one." A "one in six."

As in, one in six men will be sexually abused.

Austin thinks that statistic is wrong. He thinks it's much higher than that.

Abused when he was in his early teens, he kept his secret for 38 years.

"There's this great shame and this great guilt," he said. "That isn't mine to wear anymore. That belongs on the person who hurt me."

Austin, 53, is openly speaking out about his victimization, a part of a healing process that's only recently begun.

In mid-October the Peterborough resident sat through a taping of the Oprah Winfrey Show, one of 200 guests in the audience during a two-part show on male sexual abuse.

The first part of the show aired Friday. The second segment airs next Friday.

All of Oprah's guests were men.

Coming out as a victim, Austin said, flies in the face of everything men are taught about masculinity and gender roles.

"It threatens everything they've been taught to be as men and as young men. It's not masculine to say you've been victimized."

Austin was 12 and had a job as a newspaper delivery boy.

His abuser lived in an apartment on the top floor of a building, the last stop on his route.

He was a predator. And like any predator, he set a trap.

Shortly after Austin picked up the route his abuser phoned the newspaper and complained that his newspaper was being stolen.

Would the newspaper boy be able to knock on his door and hand it to him in person?

The abuse lasted for about two years.

"I was groomed," Austin said. "When you're a kid, and you're impressionable, you think you're special."

Austin said he never told anyone what happened, even lying and dodging questions when he was directly asked if he was ever abused.

He married, had children and got a job.

He said he tried to block out what happened.

But every now and then, things would come back to him. The sight of something, a smell, would trigger a memory.

As part of his job, he'd listen to other men talk about their experiences of abuse.

He'd hear them talk, he said, and wondered why he couldn't.

"I started to hear this stuff and I'd die inside."

In March 2008 Austin attended a conference on male sexual abuse. He was there for his job.

"I went in there as a professional. I walked out as a survivor."

The conference brought back a lot of memories, he said.

"It's quite a revelation when this stuff hits the fan," he said.

"Things are done to us, as children, things that are dark and inhumane, and are done by adults who we're supposed to trust," he said.

"And it's ghastly, the aftermath. It's absolutely ghastly."

For six months after the conference, he was in limbo, he said, not sure what to do.

Eventually, he said, he had a huge meltdown and realized it was time to let everything out.

Austin began therapy, including group therapy.

Meeting other male survivors, he said, was a tremendous benefit.

He attended a retreat in Pennsylvania this year for male victims. Oprah's producers contacted the man running the retreat and asked if anyone wanted to do the show.

Austin had to think about the offer.

He realized that coming forward with his experience was something he'd been building up to for a long time, he said.

Society has gone a long way in embracing and supporting female victims of sexual assault, he said, and most of the focus on sexual abuse has centred on women.

There's little out there for male victims, he said.

"Men have a horrible stigma applied to them and it's terrible."

Austin said the biggest and worst misconception is what he describes as the "vampire syndrome."

It's the perception that someone who was sexually abused as a child will grow up and become a perpetrator.

"That's the worse thing that anybody can call someone who is a survivor," he said. "I can't tell you how much that hurts people."

There are also a lot of homophobic connotations associated with male abuse, he said.

Austin points out that his abuser was a heterosexual man.

In male stereotypes, in the typical concept of masculinity, the idea of victimization is completely foreign, he said.

"I didn't have any concept of what it felt like to feel like a man because of the victimization."

It's his hope that other men, or boys, listen to his story and decide to come forward, or at least begin looking for information so they can get help.

"You can't force a guy onto the road of recovery," Austin said. "But once he's on that road, he'll need support."

He hopes society starts having larger, frank discussions about male abuse.

"We want the world to know sexual victimization happens to boys and men."

Austin is now in the process of starting a survivor's group for male victims.

"It's desperately needed in this community."

Coming forward, he said, was the best thing that ever happened.

He has better relationships with his wife, children and friends.

He said he feels stronger and has never felt more masculine.

"I'm happy with the outcome," he said. "I feel like I actually belong on the planet, that I'm a valued person and worthy of existing, and not some worthless victim."

NOTE: Jim Austin is a moderator with the website www.malesurvivor.org,a website based in the United States geared toward male abuse victims.

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2834474
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2010 09:18 pm
@firefly,
At the risk of sounding terribly sexist, I think it must be even more difficult for men to admit that they have been raped. I may be wrong and if I am I do apologize. I am so glad there is recovery out there for victims. The road to recovery always starts, as far as I am concerned anyway, with validation of what they have been through. Another person understanding the situation can go a long way in helping someone in any situation, not just rape.
 

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