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Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread V

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 05:47 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Regarding regime change in Iraq, need I remind you of -----------> Public Law 105-338


That Public Law says nothing about the US invading Iraq with our military. The UN did not approve of the US invasion of Iraq, and the world at large was against such invasion. The US had no business attacking a sovereign nation that posed no threat to America..


Ahh, the rallying cry of the anti-war left: "If the UN does not believe, you cannot achieve"
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 06:00 pm
"Anti-war" as derogation. Jesus was such a girly-man.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 06:03 pm
blatham wrote:
"Anti-war" as derogation. Jesus was such a girly-man.


I thought their god was a girly god, too.

Didn't it say "Thou shalt not kill" or somesuch?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 06:08 pm
Oh no. Jesus was a big supporter of cluster-bombs, torture, rolling tanks over little girls and America.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 06:16 pm
dlowan wrote:
blatham wrote:
"Anti-war" as derogation. Jesus was such a girly-man.


I thought their god was a girly god, too.

Didn't it say "Thou shalt not kill" or somesuch?


"Thou shalt not do murder."

Interestingly, it said nothing about not hunting rabbits.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 06:18 pm
blatham wrote:
Oh no. Jesus was a big supporter of cluster-bombs, torture, rolling tanks over little girls and America.


You've been listening to country music again, haven't you?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 06:27 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
Oh no. Jesus was a big supporter of cluster-bombs, torture, rolling tanks over little girls and America.


You've been listening to country music again, haven't you?


Canadian country. Betrayal, lonliness, and dusty beaver-drives.
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jan, 2008 08:06 pm
More of the aftermath.


Quote:
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 12:36 am
Ticomaya wrote:
[
Regarding regime change in Iraq, need I remind you of -----------> Public Law 105-338

... which wrote:
"It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."


... and which was signed into law by President Clinton in 1998?


This seems to stop rather short of proposing an all-out invasion and occupation.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 03:17 am
This is a hopeful sign.

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3018403#3018403
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 09:12 am


You think it's hopeful that the NYT is anti-Bush? They've been so for years.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 10:55 am
It's a hopeful sign that mainstream media are finally telling unvarnished truth. Many of them gave this Administration the benefit of considerable and long-term doubt, or just kept their heads in the sand, and others who were more critical were accused of giving help to the "enemy", or of being unpatriotic.
It was always clear to me that the people who most deserved the description "patriotic" were those who from the beginning opposed this Administration and its works.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 10:59 am
Ticomaya wrote:


You think it's hopeful that the NYT is anti-Bush? They've been so for years.


You read the times how often an in what depth?
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Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 11:15 am
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:


You think it's hopeful that the NYT is anti-Bush? They've been so for years.


You read the times how often an in what depth?


Apparently, he missed Judith Miller's "reporting" pre-invasion.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 11:50 am
More aftermath from the policies put in place under Bush's watch
Quote:
Crude futures hit record $100 a barrel on supply concerns
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-oil3jan03,0,7220282.story?coll=la-home-center
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 09:09 pm
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:


You think it's hopeful that the NYT is anti-Bush? They've been so for years.


You read the times how often an in what depth?


I haven't read it in years. That doesn't change the fact that for years it has a leftist bent, and is anti-Bush.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 09:53 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:


You think it's hopeful that the NYT is anti-Bush? They've been so for years.


You read the times how often an in what depth?


I haven't read it in years. That doesn't change the fact that for years it has a leftist bent, and is anti-Bush.


Impressive, tico.

Permit me to utilize the same sort of criteria you use to establish the real truth of things about which I will then speak with such utter certainty as you have. I shall now begin describing your family...
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 10:36 pm
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I haven't read it in years. That doesn't change the fact that for years it has a leftist bent, and is anti-Bush.


Impressive, tico.

Permit me to utilize the same sort of criteria you use to establish the real truth of things about which I will then speak with such utter certainty as you have. I shall now begin describing your family...


But you've not seen my family. I, on the other hand, have seen the Times. And while my family has grown over the last several years, the Times has remained the same. Unless you contend it's changed its stripes over the past 3 years?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 11:23 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I haven't read it in years. That doesn't change the fact that for years it has a leftist bent, and is anti-Bush.


Impressive, tico.

Permit me to utilize the same sort of criteria you use to establish the real truth of things about which I will then speak with such utter certainty as you have. I shall now begin describing your family...


But you've not seen my family. I, on the other hand, have seen the Times. And while my family has grown over the last several years, the Times has remained the same. Unless you contend it's changed its stripes over the past 3 years?


My contention, and a rather mild and obvious one it is, is that you do not know what you are talking about. Yet you feel free, clearly, to pretend that your certainties are somehow warranted. To and for yourself, at least, you should try to play this game of understanding the world more honestly.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jan, 2008 11:52 pm
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I haven't read it in years. That doesn't change the fact that for years it has a leftist bent, and is anti-Bush.


Impressive, tico.

Permit me to utilize the same sort of criteria you use to establish the real truth of things about which I will then speak with such utter certainty as you have. I shall now begin describing your family...


But you've not seen my family. I, on the other hand, have seen the Times. And while my family has grown over the last several years, the Times has remained the same. Unless you contend it's changed its stripes over the past 3 years?


My contention, and a rather mild and obvious one it is, is that you do not know what you are talking about. Yet you feel free, clearly, to pretend that your certainties are somehow warranted. To and for yourself, at least, you should try to play this game of understanding the world more honestly.


It's a liberal rag. And for evidence in support of that assertion, I present the words of Daniel Okrent, the former Public Editor for the NYT. You may argue with him:

Quote:
Is The New York Times a Liberal Newspaper?
By DANIEL OKRENT
Published: July 25, 2004, Sunday



OF course it is.

The fattest file on my hard drive is jammed with letters from the disappointed, the dismayed and the irate who find in this newspaper a liberal bias that infects not just political coverage but a range of issues from abortion to zoology to the appointment of an admitted Democrat to be its watchdog. (That would be me.) By contrast, readers who attack The Times from the left -- and there are plenty -- generally confine their complaints to the paper's coverage of electoral politics and foreign policy.

I'll get to the politics-and-policy issues this fall (I want to watch the campaign coverage before I conclude anything), but for now my concern is the flammable stuff that ignites the right. These are the social issues: gay rights, gun control, abortion and environmental regulation, among others. And if you think The Times plays it down the middle on any of them, you've been reading the paper with your eyes closed.

But if you're examining the paper's coverage of these subjects from a perspective that is neither urban nor Northeastern nor culturally seen-it-all; if you are among the groups The Times treats as strange objects to be examined on a laboratory slide (devout Catholics, gun owners, Orthodox Jews, Texans); if your value system wouldn't wear well on a composite New York Times journalist, then a walk through this paper can make you feel you're traveling in a strange and forbidding world.

Start with the editorial page, so thoroughly saturated in liberal theology that when it occasionally strays from that point of view the shocked yelps from the left overwhelm even the ceaseless rumble of disapproval from the right.

Across the gutter, the Op-Ed page editors do an evenhanded job of representing a range of views in the essays from outsiders they publish -- but you need an awfully heavy counterweight to balance a page that also bears the work of seven opinionated columnists, only two of whom could be classified as conservative (and, even then, of the conservative subspecies that supports legalization of gay unions and, in the case of William Safire, opposes some central provisions of the Patriot Act).

But opinion pages are opinion pages, and ''balanced opinion page'' is an oxymoron. So let's move elsewhere. In the Sunday magazine, the culture-wars applause-o-meter chronically points left. On the Arts & Leisure front page every week, columnist Frank Rich slices up President Bush, Mel Gibson, John Ashcroft and other paladins of the right in prose as uncompromising as Paul Krugman's or Maureen Dowd's. The culture pages often feature forms of art, dance or theater that may pass for normal (or at least tolerable) in New York but might be pretty shocking in other places.

Same goes for fashion coverage, particularly in the Sunday magazine, where I've encountered models who look like they're preparing to murder (or be murdered), and others arrayed in a mode you could call dominatrix chic. If you're like Jim Chapman, one of my correspondents who has given up on The Times, you're lost in space. Wrote Chapman, ''Whatever happened to poetry that required rhyme and meter, to songs that required lyrics and tunes, to clothing ads that stressed the costume rather than the barely clothed females and slovenly dressed, slack-jawed, unshaven men?''

In the Sunday Styles section, there are gay wedding announcements, of course, but also downtown sex clubs and T-shirts bearing the slogan, ''I'm afraid of Americans.'' The findings of racial-equity reformer Richard Lapchick have been appearing in the sports pages for decades (''Since when is diversity a sport?'' one e-mail complainant grumbled). The front page of the Metro section has featured a long piece best described by its subhead, ''Cross-Dressers Gladly Pay to Get in Touch with Their Feminine Side.'' And a creationist will find no comfort in Science Times.

Not that creationists should expect to find comfort in Science Times. Newspapers have the right to decide what's important and what's not. But their editors must also expect that some readers will think: ''This does not represent me or my interests. In fact, it represents my enemy.'' So is it any wonder that the offended or befuddled reader might consider everything else in the paper -- including, say, campaign coverage -- suspicious as well?

TIMES publisher Arthur O. Sulzberger Jr. doesn't think this walk through The Times is a tour of liberalism. He prefers to call the paper's viewpoint ''urban.'' He says that the tumultuous, polyglot metropolitan environment The Times occupies means ''We're less easily shocked,'' and that the paper reflects ''a value system that recognizes the power of flexibility.''

He's right; living in New York makes a lot of people think that way, and a lot of people who think that way find their way to New York (me, for one). The Times has chosen to be an unashamed product of the city whose name it bears, a condition magnified by the been-there-done-that irony afflicting too many journalists. Articles containing the word ''postmodern'' have appeared in The Times an average of four times a week this year -- true fact! -- and if that doesn't reflect a Manhattan sensibility, I'm Noam Chomsky.

But it's one thing to make the paper's pages a congenial home for editorial polemicists, conceptual artists, the fashion-forward or other like-minded souls (European papers, aligned with specific political parties, have been doing it for centuries), and quite another to tell only the side of the story your co-religionists wish to hear. I don't think it's intentional when The Times does this. But negligence doesn't have to be intentional.

The gay marriage issue provides a perfect example. Set aside the editorial page, the columnists or the lengthy article in the magazine (''Toward a More Perfect Union,'' by David J. Garrow, May 9) that compared the lawyers who won the Massachusetts same-sex marriage lawsuit to Thurgood Marshall and Martin Luther King. That's all fine, especially for those of us who believe that homosexual couples should have precisely the same civil rights as heterosexuals.

But for those who also believe the news pages cannot retain their credibility unless all aspects of an issue are subject to robust examination, it's disappointing to see The Times present the social and cultural aspects of same-sex marriage in a tone that approaches cheerleading. So far this year, front-page headlines have told me that ''For Children of Gays, Marriage Brings Joy'' (March 19); that the family of ''Two Fathers, With One Happy to Stay at Home'' (Jan. 12) is a new archetype; and that ''Gay Couples Seek Unions in God's Eyes'' (Jan. 30). I've learned where gay couples go to celebrate their marriages; I've met gay couples picking out bridal dresses; I've been introduced to couples who have been together for decades and have now sanctified their vows in Canada, couples who have successfully integrated the world of competitive ballroom dancing, couples whose lives are the platonic model of suburban stability.

Every one of these articles was perfectly legitimate. Cumulatively, though, they would make a very effective ad campaign for the gay marriage cause. You wouldn't even need the articles: run the headlines over the invariably sunny pictures of invariably happy people that ran with most of these pieces, and you'd have the makings of a life insurance commercial.

This implicit advocacy is underscored by what hasn't appeared. Apart from one excursion into the legal ramifications of custody battles (''Split Gay Couples Face Custody Hurdles,'' by Adam Liptak and Pam Belluck, March 24), potentially nettlesome effects of gay marriage have been virtually absent from The Times since the issue exploded last winter.

The San Francisco Chronicle runs an uninflected article about Congressional testimony from a Stanford scholar making the case that gay marriage in the Netherlands has had a deleterious effect on heterosexual marriage. The Boston Globe explores the potential impact of same-sex marriage on tax revenues, and the paucity of reliable research on child-rearing in gay families. But in The Times, I have learned next to nothing about these issues, nor about partner abuse in the gay community, about any social difficulties that might be encountered by children of gay couples or about divorce rates (or causes, or consequences) among the 7,000 couples legally joined in Vermont since civil union was established there four years ago.

On a topic that has produced one of the defining debates of our time, Times editors have failed to provide the three-dimensional perspective balanced journalism requires. This has not occurred because of management fiat, but because getting outside one's own value system takes a great deal of self-questioning. Six years ago, the ownership of this sophisticated New York institution decided to make it a truly national paper. Today, only 50 percent of The Times's readership resides in metropolitan New York, but the paper's heart, mind and habits remain embedded here. You can take the paper out of the city, but without an effort to take the city and all its attendant provocations, experiments and attitudes out of the paper, readers with a different worldview will find The Times an alien beast.

Taking the New York out of The New York Times would be a really bad idea. But a determination by the editors to be mindful of the weight of its hometown's presence would not.

With that, I'm leaving town. Next week, letters from readers; after that, this space will be occupied by my polymathic pal Jack Rosenthal, a former Times writer and editor whose name appeared on the masthead for 25 years. I'm going to spend August in a deck chair and see if I can once again read The Times like a civilian. See you after Labor Day.

The public editor serves as the readers' representative. His opinions and conclusions are his own. His address is Public Editor, The New York Times, 229 West 43rd Street, New York 10036-3959; or e-mail: [email protected]. Telephone messages: (212) 556-7652. The public editor's column appears at least twice monthly in this section, and his Web journal can be found at nytimes.com/danielokrent.

Published: 07 - 25 - 2004 , Late Edition - Final , Section 4 , Column 1 , Page 2 [/i]
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