Fred Thompson... unclear on the concept?

USAFHokie80 wrote:

Translation software is crap.

My argument isn't a moral one at all. I really don't see this as a moral v. immoral issue.

Also, for the most part, I abhor most republican beliefs. Though, I do not consider myself a democrat. I think partisanship is somewhat silly. I try to look at things from a logical and reasoned point.

To function well in the US, people need to know the language of the majority.

There are millions of citizens who disagree with your judgment on this issue. And their opinion happens to carry greater weight then yours, as they've been living here for years, perfectly fine, without knowing the 'language of the majority.'

Cycloptichorn

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Firstly, I've noticed that in nearly every one of your posts, you have failed to grasp the English language and the difference between "then" and "than." I admit I make typos not infrequently, but you've made that mistake constantly.

Now... I take offense at the idea that their opinions carry any more weight than mine.

Anyway, I seriously doubt that any immigrants that have been here for a number of years can function well having not learned English. I'm pretty sure that if you find one, they have had to learn at least a modicum to get by.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

Firstly, I've noticed that in nearly every one of your posts, you have failed to grasp the English language and the difference between "then" and "than." I admit I make typos not infrequently, but you've made that mistake constantly.

Now... I take offense at the idea that their opinions carry any more weight than mine.

Anyway, I seriously doubt that any immigrants that have been here for a number of years can function well having not learned English. I'm pretty sure that if you find one, they have had to learn at least a modicum to get by.

I'm not concerned by your language quibbles.

Their opinion does carry greater weight than yours, as they are living an actuality of the situation, whereas you are positing hypothetical problems they would face. I'm sure that many of them have learned a modicum of the English language, as you say; you will find that there's a large difference between understanding simple commands, and figuring out complicated issues such as voting. I say voting is complicated, b/c apparently a large percentage of our population has trouble doing it in their native language, English. We have a responsibility to have ballots which are easy to read and accurate, and as there is not much effort involved in printing them up in several languages, there's no compelling reason not to.

Your doubt that immigrants can function well in society is little more than a biased opinion. I'm sure many of them get along just fine. In Texas, where I'm from, we have a lot more experience with immigrants then you do in MO, I wot. There are many folks whose grandparents live with them, get along just fine, drive, vote, and speak little to no English.

What is the driving reason behind your desire to see ballots only printed in English? Clearly explain it, please.

Cycloptichorn

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We don't have trouble voting in English... that is an excuse what a given party to try to get things counted in their favor. That being said, trying to print ballots in numerous languages is only going to exacerbate this problem. You'll have people questioning the validity of the translation for a given dialect. They'll claim that it was not clear.

I suppose my reason is that since it is required that immigrants learn the language anyway, it is far simple and more cost-effective to print a single ballot in a single language. Also, it seems to me it is somewhat more unifying than furthering the disparities between "them" and "us."

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

We don't have trouble voting in English... that is an excuse what a given party to try to get things counted in their favor. That being said, trying to print ballots in numerous languages is only going to exacerbate this problem. You'll have people questioning the validity of the translation for a given dialect. They'll claim that it was not clear.

I suppose my reason is that since it is required that immigrants learn the language anyway, it is far simple and more cost-effective to print a single ballot in a single language. Also, it seems to me it is somewhat more unifying than furthering the disparities between "them" and "us."

My guess is the disparities exist more in your mind then they do in real life. I for example don't see a difference between myself and an immigrant who doesn't speak English well.

I notice that you have zero facts, figures, or information of any kind which would actually show the additional cost of foreign-language ballots. Only hypotheticals which strangely don't seem to have been much of a problem all these years in which people have been... voting on ballots printed in other languages.

I don't suppose it's even necessary to point out that during a time in which we are spending 12 billion dollars a month on Iraq and Afghanistan combined - $394,520,547 dollars per day, every day, all year - the cost of printing ballots in additional languages is infinitesimal. But I haven't seen a single post from you complaining about the cost of the war.

You are having a tough time attempting to cover up your prejudice against immigrants, legal or not, who don't speak the same language as you. You've forwarded no actual data showing that what you describe is a problem for anyone. I have no choice but to conclude that you are merely attempting to justify an internalized bigotry or fear of those who are unlike you, as your arguments don't make any logical sense. There is no great cost in printing ballots in foreign languages, there is a definite gain from doing so, and what more, it's consistent with our mission as a nation to be inclusive to peoples instead of exclusive.

Cycloptichorn

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You are not everyone. Like it or not, there are many people in the nation that do see a difference.

And you're right, I don't have any figures showing the increased cost. It is intuitive that it would cost more simply because you have to pay people to translate into all of these languages.

I don't comment on the cost of the war becasue that has aboslutely NOTHING to do with this thread. That being said, I think bush is an idiot and this war is and always was a son's attemp to finish what his father started.

I'm not convering any prejudice. And by the way, I do speak spanish (and some japanese). You keep trying to demonize me for not agreeing with you. That is beyond idiotic. My arguments do make sense, you just don't like them.

My entire point, in all my posts, is that since we have a language that a VAST majority of the nation speaks, it would be much simpler to use *that* language for any official business. Hell, most other countries use English and it's not even their native language!

I'm not trying to say that hispanic people are stupid or less than me or anything else because they speak a different language. I am saying that if anyone (regardless of origin) wants to come here and live as a citizen, it sure as hell wouldn't hurt them to show some initiative and learn English.

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My arguments do make sense, you just don't like them.

No, they don't make sense and I don't like them.

Quote:

My entire point, in all my posts, is that since we have a language that a VAST majority of the nation speaks, it would be much simpler to use *that* language for any official business. Hell, most other countries use English and it's not even their native language!

Much simpler for who? Not for the people who don't speak English very well, that's for sure.

This is a wonderful opinion that you hold, but nothing more. Until you can provide some sort of factual case that the US should not print documents in other language, there is no reason to do so. You haven't presented any compelling reason for us not to do so, other than the fact you think it 'makes sense.' At the end of the day, the policy isn't going to change.

I only brought up the Iraq fiasco, b/c compared to all other issues where the increased cost of something is brought up, it trumps them every time. And I haven't seen you comment on the cost of the war in any thread. It really makes me question the idea that your objections to printing documents in other languages are truly based upon the money it takes to do so, as you don't seem to spend much time questioning far, far greater wastes.

Cycloptichorn

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Well I happen to think my reasons do make sense.

Did you actually search all the threads for my posts? Are you sure I didn't make comments on the way? (I'm not sure if I have or not, but that's beside the point)

You're right, it is my opinion. All of this is opinion.

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Well I happen to think my reasons do make sense.

Most people do. The challenge is to prove it.

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Did you actually search all the threads for my posts? Are you sure I didn't make comments on the way? (I'm not sure if I have or not, but that's beside the point)

Yes, I did. The search function here is powerful and easy to use. Cross-reference your name with the search term 'iraq' and see what comes up.

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You're right, it is my opinion. All of this is opinion.

On the contrary. We currently do print ballots in many different languages; I know this as I was a poll worker in Austin for 3 years. They worked out quite well for the people who didn't speak English with fluency, and it isn't always who you would think - an elderly French couple wanted French ballots, b/c they didn't understand all the legal terminology on the English ones and wanted to read the whole thing.

So there is a body of actual evidence that people are actually helped by this - that's more then an opinion.

Cycloptichorn

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...more than an opinion.

and really, if you did a search for any post that included my name and iraq, you could have potentially missed some. maybe you should just read all my posts to be sure.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

...more than an opinion.

and really, if you did a search for any post that included my name and iraq, you could have potentially missed some. maybe you should just read all my posts to be sure.

Not unless you wrote a post about the costs of the Iraq war without including the word 'iraq.' I'm not interested in doing a comprehensive search, as the subject doesn't appeal to me in anything other than a passing way.

Ah, well. We've beat this horse to death enough anyways, as with a Dem Congress which isn't going anywhere, and a significant chance that a Dem president is on the way in, there isn't going to be any changes to the 'official language' nonsense anytime soon.

Cycloptichorn

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Brown, can you carry on a conversation on something besides immigration? Are you afraid of losing your slaves, I mean workforce?

BTW, Ron Reagan said that a country without borders is not a country. (This may be the only correct statement that he ever made.)

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1. Yes, I do have conversations about plenty of topics.

2. Actually, I don't have slaves (I don't even have employees). I am afraid of losing my friends and neighbors.

3. Are you quoting about the President that masterminded the last amnesty? ('cause that would be a bit ironic).

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Fred Thompson... unclear on the concept?

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