Do Christians believe in ghosts?

@Foxfyre,

So he has a vivid imagination. That shouldn't convince anyone.

I stated that "identity dies with the body". I have no theory for this, as it is simply my opinion based on what I consider to be obvious fact. When someone dies, they're gone, and there is no reason to think otherwise that I know of.

David,
You said these are not supernatural phenomena. If not, you should be able to offer a reasonable explanation... a theory of some sort. I have read through the posts in this thread and have not found one. Did I miss it?

2 Replies

@echi,

echi wrote:

So he has a vivid imagination. That shouldn't convince anyone.

But personal experience from a person not given to wild fancies--and nobody would ever accuse David of such--can be instructive and at least create curiosity in those who have not closed their minds and who are open to all possibilities. Without such people, we would still believe many things are impossible that have since been discovered to be quite possible.

Quote:

I stated that "identity dies with the body". I have no theory for this, as it is simply my opinion based on what I consider to be obvious fact. When someone dies, they're gone, and there is no reason to think otherwise that I know of.

The fact of stating it is in itself a 'theory' unless you have proof for it as a fact. Why do you consider it to be obvious fact in the face of hundreds of millions, indeed billions of people who believe otherwise? I am not appealing to authority here, but many of those who believe do so out of their personal experience and others believe on the strength of strong testimony. I choose not to question one's personal experience without some rather conclusive evidence that the person is making it up. On what basis do you frame your belief or conviction? What others believe is obvious to them. What make the fact you state of your belief obvious to you?

Quote:

David,
You said these are not supernatural phenomena. If not, you should be able to offer a reasonable explanation... a theory of some sort. I have read through the posts in this thread and have not found one. Did I miss it?

This would rather depend on one's definition of 'supernatural', but I have no reason to disbelieve David's testimony of his experience. I can see room to interpret his testimony in various ways, but I have basis to discredit what he states did happen to him. What theory does he need other than that?

And why would you request a theory from him when you have none for your own belief?

1 Reply

I wonder if Echi will consider this 'evidence'? Will anybody?

The video at the link for the story is somewhat different than the You Tube version below:

Quote:

Researchers Say Photo of Jim Morrison's Ghost Is Real
Oct 12th 2009
by Charley Rogulewski

Jim Morrison has been dead for almost four decades but a snapshot belonging to longtime rock historian Brett Meisner allegedly shows the Doors frontman haunting his own grave. And now, just in time for Halloween, researchers now claim the image is authentic.

Back in 1997, Meisner decided to take a snapshot next to the rock legend's grave in the famous Père Lachaise cemetery in Paris, not exactly an uncommon thing to do considering some 1000 people visit the grave daily. The photo, taken by Meisner's assistant, shows the historian casually standing next to Morrison's plot with one hand in his pocket and a white cloudy shadow to his left, the latter going unnoticed until Meisner finally decided to revisit the photo in 2002. The cloudy obscure image to Meisner's left appeared to be the deceased singer himself.

Word quickly spread thanks to the Internet and the historian sent the photo in for further analysis, which concluded that the snapshot was indeed as bone chilling as it was first perceived. In a new book titled 'Ghosts Caught on Film 2: Photographs of the Unexplained,' researchers rule out both lightning and image manipulation and conclude that the photo is simply "unexplainable."

"Part of me wishes that I never stepped foot into the graveyard in the first place," Meisner told the UK's Sunday Express. His life was never the same after taking it. Not only did his marriage dissolve, but in an eerie coincidence to Morrison's life, Meisner lost a close pal to a drug overdose as well. The photo also brought all sorts of cuckoos to Meisner's door saying they bared messages from the rock god.

"At first it was sort of interesting to see how many people felt a spiritual bond with Jim and the photo," Meisner said, "but now the whole vibe seems negative." Meisner hopes to privately donate the photo and negative.
http://www.spinner.com/2009/10/12/researchers-say-photo-of-jim-morrisons-ghost-is-real?icid=main|htmlws-main|dl2|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spinner.com%2F2009%2F10%2F12%2Fresearchers-say-photo-of-jim-morrisons-ghost-is-real

1 Reply

@echi,

echi wrote:

Quote:
So he has a vivid imagination. That shouldn't convince anyone.
Read the thread; this one.

Quote:
I stated that "identity dies with the body". I have no theory for this, as it is simply my opinion based on what I consider to be obvious fact. When someone dies, they're gone, and there is no reason to think otherwise that I know of.

Maybe that 's because u did not read the thread.

Quote:

David,
You said these are not supernatural phenomena.
If not, you should be able to offer a reasonable explanation...
a theory of some sort. I have read through the posts in this thread and have not found one. Did I miss it?
Yes.

Natural:
"adjective 1. existing in or formed by nature (opposed to artificial ): a natural bridge.
2. based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature: Growth is a natural process.
3. of or pertaining to nature or the universe: natural beauty.
4. of, pertaining to, or occupied with the study of natural science: conducting natural experiments.
5. in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land.
6. growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
[emphasis added by David]

In the ordinary course of events, your deciduous body collapses
and fails to function, after it has worn out. It is then natural
for your consciousness to leave it.

We know this from the testimony of people who have had this happen.
There have been objective confirmations of these phenomena
as already set forth in this thread.
The state of nature is what it is regardless of whether I convince u of anything.

www.IANDS.org

David

2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

It is then natural
for your consciousness to leave it.

We know this from the testimony of people who have had this happen.
There have been objective confirmations of these phenomena
as already set forth in this thread.
The state of nature is what it is regardless of whether I convince u of anything.

Your explanations and pleadings are based upon a single theory that is not based upon anything provable. Ive been reading your near death society stuff and am frankly unconvinced that theyve actually researched anything that is fact. As weve explored on anotrher thread, there are entire classes of beings that can stop their living state for periods as great as 3 or 4 years, and then, with the addition of a single ingredient (Light, warmth, heat) the animals will return to a living state and proceed with their jobs that were so rudely interrupted by winter or drought. IMO, Until your group can distinguish any difference or similarity between these temporary turpor conditions and "real" death you will not be able to conclude that what you call NDE's are anything but a dream state within a special kind of turpor associated with severe trauma or shock,
There are so many stages of the ebbing of life that NDE's may evidence only a temporary stage on the way to becoming "sufficiently dead". I feel that, once sufficiently dead, the entire process is irreversable and all brain functions coincident with deep turpor , cease.

NDE's are a nice thing to wish for and believe in based upon a need to stave off the inevitable. I firmly believe that our only link with immortality is in our genetic code and how well weve metered that out.

2 Replies

@farmerman,

Also, real death means all functions ceases to function that includes the stopping of the heart and oxygen not being fed to the brain. That's real dead; all others are temporary cessation of function, and is not death. Even with heart surgery, they can use pumps to keep other vitals alive. When they are unable to use these artificial life sustaining machines can anyone be considered medically dead.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Also, real death means all functions ceases to function that includes the stopping of the heart and oxygen not being fed to the brain. That's real dead;

That 's what we had in mind.

0 Replies

@farmerman,

I don 't like to be redundant, but I pointed out that people have been
overheard by decedents, conversing with their relatives in hospital
waiting rooms, and those people got disinherited for bad-mouthing
the decedent, elsewhere in the hospital. Extant witnesses to an
event at which decedent's human body was demonstrably absent.

In my Mary Francis example, her daughter came home
with the misspelled word. Some other fellow whose body
was in a state of death (no EKG, no EEG, no respiration for a while)
saw a canvas sneaker upside down on a 7th floor ledge outside
a hospital window where he had never been b4, etc.

Presumably, your counterargument will be that a torpid state
of suspended animation is attended by ESP in the living torpid being. Right?

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

A person in turpor can absorb information from others. I often sleep with a TV on and incorporate stuff into my dreams about which I had no experience.

As far as the number of people who see sneakers on a different floor, that can be easily tested in place. Id like some information from controlled circumstances not mere heresay.

I realize that you are convinced. I am, equally not.

0 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Quote:

But personal experience from a person not given to wild fancies--and nobody would ever accuse David of such--can be instructive and at least create curiosity in those who have not closed their minds and who are open to all possibilities.

Apparently, David is very much given to wild fancies. If he wants his wild claim to be taken seriously he should be prepared with mounds of evidence and a plausible explanation.

echi wrote:

I stated that "identity dies with the body". I have no theory for this, as it is simply my opinion based on what I consider to be obvious fact. When someone dies, they're gone, and there is no reason to think otherwise that I know of.
Foxfyre wrote:
The fact of stating it is in itself a 'theory' unless you have proof for it as a fact. Why do you consider it to be obvious fact in the face of hundreds of millions, indeed billions of people who believe otherwise? I am not appealing to authority here, but many of those who believe do so out of their personal experience and others believe on the strength of strong testimony. I choose not to question one's personal experience without some rather conclusive evidence that the person is making it up.

Appeal to the masses. Am I close-minded, or are you naive?

0 Replies

@Foxfyre,

Thank you, Foxfyre. I rest my case.

Happy Halloween!!

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

I did read the thread. Because I keep an open mind I gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought I might have missed your evidence. All you have presented is the flimsiest sort of evidence and still, not surprisingly, no explanation that makes any sense, at all.

OmSigDAVID wrote:

In the ordinary course of events, your deciduous body collapses
and fails to function, after it has worn out. It is then natural
for your consciousness to leave it.

BOO!!!

1 Reply

@echi,

echi wrote:

I did read the thread. Because I keep an open mind I gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought I might have missed your evidence. All you have presented is the flimsiest sort of evidence and still, not surprisingly, no explanation that makes any sense, at all.
OmSigDAVID wrote:

In the ordinary course of events, your deciduous body collapses
and fails to function, after it has worn out. It is then natural
for your consciousness to leave it.

BOO!!!

COUNTER-BOO and Happy Halloween!!!!!

(Meaning no offense, Echi,) u remind me of the friends of
Guglielmo Marconi who informed them that he coud send
information thru the air, unsupported by any wires.
His friends had him confined to a mental hospital,
from which he liberated himself and invented
the radio, or more precisely the wireless telegraf.

It is as if u said, Echi, that u can believe in radios
because u can see them, u can feel them, u can hold them in your hand,
but (in contrast) u dispute such superstitions as any radio waves.

I am not alone in my vivid imagination, Echi; many 1000s
of other people have had out-of-body experiences.
In some of those cases their human bodies were in a state
of good health, and in others, thay were apparently inert.
When that happens, we have the options of revealing those
experiences (like Joan Rivers, who casually mentioned arriving excarnate,
in her daughter 's house many miles distant and making some observations)
or keeping them secretly concealed.

Researchers have found that some folks who 've had those
experiences kept silent about them for years, out of fear
of being considered crazy. Since I don 't care what anyone thinks,
I don 't mind revealing my own experiences, modest tho thay be.

If u have an out-of-body experience, Echi, then u too will be
presented with that choice. Whether u believe that I am right or rong,
I will be no better nor any worse off, regardless of what u decide to believe.

David

1 Reply

@echi,

Apologies, Foxfyre, for being a little jerky. It was hard to resist after reading about the Jim Morrison ghost story. Don't you think there might be another, better, explanation?

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

No offense taken, David. Thank you.

You are correct in assuming that I have never had an out-of-body-experience. I did have a sort-of similar experience that comes to mind. I had been trying to fall asleep on the couch for some time, when I apparently got up, walked around, flipped some light switches (the lights would not come on). I then walked outside for some fresh air, and when I came back inside there was a hooded figure standing in the corner. Needless to say, I was freaked out and realized (and hoped) that I must be dreaming. I lay back down on the couch, this time to try to wake up, which before long I did (obvious only because the lights worked and the hooded figure was gone).

Maybe I was not dreaming, at all, but had entered some altered state of awareness, or some such. I might believe that if there wasn't a more reasonable explanation, just as there must be with these out-of-body experiences.

I like your radio waves story, and I assure you that I do not believe you should be committed to an institution. But just as Marconi had to produce evidence, so do those who make claims like yours. I would love to be convinced of out-of-body-experiences, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, and other paranormal activity (it would be extremely exciting), but the evidence I have seen is not convincing.

1 Reply

@echi,

Yes; the question resolves itself down to whether
consciousness depends for its existence upon matter or not.
All of the consciousness that we see around us
is manifested thru matter. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Our senses are limited. It is not necessarily the fact that all
that exists is detectable thru our unaided senses. Lack of human
imagination does not operate to curtail extant possibilities.
There was a Congressman during the Abraham Lincoln Administration
who advocated fiscal economy by abolishing the US Patent Office
because it was obvious that everything of any significance had already been invented.

I am not able to judge whether u had an out-of-body experience
or whether u dreamed it; either is possible. Indeed, u can have
a genuine oobe today, and then dream about having one tomorrow.
With luck, u can return with verifiable observations of significant events.

David

1 Reply

@echi,

echi wrote:

Apologies, Foxfyre, for being a little jerky. It was hard to resist after reading about the Jim Morrison ghost story. Don't you think there might be another, better, explanation?

No offense taken. I don't have a clue what that 'image' was all about, nor does anybody else, but without evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to disbelieve the experts who have concluded that the photograph was not altered in any way. So something was there. We will probably not know what in this lifetime. The story does illustrate, however, the unexplainable phenomenon that surrounds us all, and how little we fully understand.

As I have said previously, I have not had a personal remembered experience with the paranormal or supernatural so far as disembodied spirits go, whether those be angels, demons, spirits of the dead, or out of body experiences. But I think without persuasive evidence to the contrary, the truly enlightened do not arbitrarily close their minds to what others report of their experience, and do not discount possibilities for phenomenon and truths beyond their/our own experience and/or present ability to understand.

2 Replies

@Foxfyre,

echi wrote:

Apologies, Foxfyre, for being a little jerky. It was hard to resist after reading
about the Jim Morrison ghost story. Don't you think there might
be another, better, explanation?

Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:

No offense taken. I don't have a clue what that 'image' was all about,
nor does anybody else, but without evidence to the contrary,
I have no reason to disbelieve the experts who have concluded
that the photograph was not altered in any way. So something
was there. We will probably not know what in this lifetime.

Interesting point, about that: ex-decedents who have
revived and attested to their experiences, have told us in the
Near Death Experience literature (q.v.) of having Life Review
Experiences, wherein thay observed (from a 3rd person perspective)
the events of their lives. Thay 've told of the sense that
all information was then available to them, as having 1000s
of universities of knowledge all at once, as some have described it.

Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:

The story does illustrate, however, the unexplainable
phenomenon that surrounds us all, and how little we fully understand.

Yes, but we can also look at it from
another angle: how much we have learned.
I remember in the 1950s, we had many science fiction
movies qua interplanetary exploration to Mars and to Venus.
We had little idea what was on Mars and none at all on Venus,
because of its cloud cover. In some sci-fi movies, thay had
dinosaurs running around there, or advanced human civilizations.
Now we know for a fact that Venus is a bleak 900 degree F. desert
and Mars is another one tho not that hot. I am quite impressed
with the new wealth of information that we have from all
of the other planets of the solar system and their moons.

Quote:

As I have said previously, I have not had a personal remembered experience
with the paranormal or supernatural so far as disembodied spirits go,
whether those be angels, demons, spirits of the dead,
or out of body experiences. But I think without persuasive evidence
to the contrary, the truly enlightened do not arbitrarily close
their minds to what others report of their experience, and do not
discount possibilities for phenomenon and truths beyond their/our
own experience and/or present ability to understand.

We shall see what we shall see.
U might, perhaps, enjoy a book by an acquaintance of mine,
Janis Amatuzio, M.D., author of FOREVER OURS.
She is the Coronor for numerous counties in both Minnesota
and Wisconsin, of many years' standing. She has an outstanding
professional reputation. Tho she has never seen the disembodied
spirit of any of her customers, she has some quite interesting
accounts of their survivors, concerning the subject matter.
Janis has an easy, fluid, writing style; her book is a quick read;
available from Amazon.com I liked it.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Yes; the question resolves itself down to whether
consciousness depends for its existence upon matter or not.
All of the consciousness that we see around us
is manifested thru matter. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It is true that all of the consciousness we see is manifested through matter. And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is still absence of evidence. Aside from there being a lack of evidence, there is also a lack of any need for alternative explanations to dreaming, or hallucinations, or something of the sort.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

I'll look for the book, David. I appreciate the recommendation. I have read a number of testimonies from people who have died and been resuscitated and also of Doctors, once skeptics, who have become believers that consciousness continues after the physical death of the body.

Are you aware of this study? Perhaps it will produce some hard evidence that our friend Echi seems to think is necessary in order to even have this discussion:

Quote:

Thursday, 18 September 2008 UK
Study into near-death experiences
By Jane Dreaper
Health correspondent, BBC News

Many people report seeing a bright light
A large study is to examine near-death experiences in cardiac arrest patients.

Doctors at 25 UK and US hospitals will study 1,500 survivors to see if people with no heartbeat or brain activity can have "out of body" experiences.

Some people report seeing a tunnel or bright light, others recall looking down from the ceiling at medical staff.

The study, due to take three years and co-ordinated by Southampton University, will include placing on shelves images that could only be seen from above.

This is a mystery that we can now subject to scientific study

Towards the light

To test this, the researchers have set up special shelving in resuscitation areas. The shelves hold pictures - but they're visible only from the ceiling.

Dr Sam Parnia, who is heading the study, said: "If you can demonstrate that consciousness continues after the brain switches off, it allows for the possibility that the consciousness is a separate entity.

"It is unlikely that we will find many cases where this happens, but we have to be open-minded.

"And if no one sees the pictures, it shows these experiences are illusions or false memories.

"This is a mystery that we can now subject to scientific study."

Dr Parnia works as an intensive care doctor, and felt from his daily duties that science had not properly explored the issue of near-death experiences.

Process of death

He said: "Contrary to popular perception, death is not a specific moment.

"It is a process that begins when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working and the brain ceases functioning - a medical condition termed cardiac arrest.

"During a cardiac arrest, all three criteria of death are present. There then follows a period of time, which may last from a few seconds to an hour or more, in which emergency medical efforts may succeed in restarting the heart and reversing the dying process.

"What people experience during this period of cardiac arrest provides a unique window of understanding into what we are all likely to experience during the dying process."

Dr Parnia and medical colleagues will analyse the brain activity of 1,500 cardiac arrest survivors, and see whether they can recall the images in the pictures.

Hospitals involved include Addenbrookes in Cambridge, University Hospital in Birmingham and the Morriston in Swansea, as well as nine hospitals in the US.

1 Reply

Do Christians believe in ghosts?

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