everything else does .....

That's right, C.I.. I even know people who meditate simply to control stress, a purely medical or physical health reason.

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IFeelFree wrote:

. . . If meditation is awareness without thought, you might wonder how you would even know if you experienced it.

There is no awareness without differentiation. When you experience "pure awareness" what is it that you are aware of?

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What is "pure awareness?" How does one know he/she has it? Sounds like someone who has taken some mind-altering drug.

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echi wrote:

IFeelFree wrote:
. . . If meditation is awareness without thought, you might wonder how you would even know if you experienced it.
There is no awareness without differentiation. When you experience "pure awareness" what is it that you are aware of?

It is consciousness without being conscious of an object, without any mental activity. It is consciousness being conscious of itself.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

What is "pure awareness?" How does one know he/she has it? Sounds like someone who has taken some mind-altering drug.

I assure you that I don't do any drugs. (I smoked pot a couple of times back in the 70s, but that was the full extent of my drug use.) Pure awareness is consciousness without any mental activity. You are awake but without any thoughts. There is just pure awareness. You don't realize you are having the experience until afterwards when you suddenly notice that time went by and there was no thinking, just an awareness of energy, bliss, peace.

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IFeelFree wrote:

echi wrote:
There is no awareness without differentiation. When you experience "pure awareness" what is it that you are aware of?

It is consciousness without being conscious of an object, without any mental activity. It is consciousness being conscious of itself.

If you are conscious of consciousness then (your concept of) "consciousness" is the object.

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echi wrote:

IFeelFree wrote:
echi wrote:
There is no awareness without differentiation. When you experience "pure awareness" what is it that you are aware of?

It is consciousness without being conscious of an object, without any mental activity. It is consciousness being conscious of itself.
If you are conscious of consciousness then (your concept of) "consciousness" is the object.

Consciousness is not a concept. It is prior to, or independent of, the conceptual mind. It is prior to thought. It is the Self that is talked about in Eastern mysticism. When you are awake but all thought or mental activity subsides, there are no concepts. There is only pure consciousness.

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I would like to "see" this "pure awareness" by attaching some probes on the brain for brain activity during this "event." I'm curious as to how it may look like; it must be quite different from all other brain activity.

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O.K., IFF, I think I see what you mean by "pure consciousness." You do not identity it as consciousness without content. As I suggested somewhere above, consciousness is (by definition) always OF something (like the word, focus), but in your "pure" consciousness that "purity" occurs because of the absence of memory. After a period of intense (but profoundly passive/unfocused) awareness one realizes that one was intensely aware of UNRECALLED/UNRECALLABLE content; you have a vague memory of having meditated and that you experienced images, sensations, feelings, thoughts but without having latched onto them (grasping or attaching), i.e., that they simply passed through the mind without footprints, as it were.

I'm not adquately aware of the philosophical literature on consciousness. Fresco has provided us with a good link (that I've only scanned so far) regarding the work of David Chalmers, a pioneering specialist in the area:

http://consc.net/online.html

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cicerone imposter wrote:

I would like to "see" this "pure awareness" by attaching some probes on the brain for brain activity during this "event." I'm curious as to how it may look like; it must be quite different from all other brain activity.

As a matter of fact, there has been research done in this area. In fact, I participated in a study in the 1970s in which they attached electrodes to my head and monitored my brain waves while I meditated. Interestingly, they also attached an intravenous line which ran behind me to where a doctor would periodically withdraw some blood. In this way, they were able to simultaneously measure brain wave activity and blood chemistry before, during, and after meditation. There was also a battery of physical and psychological tests before and after. The only individual results that I saw were a map of the synchronization in brain wave phase between different areas of my brain during the meditative state. There was a marked global synchrony in brain wave activity.

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JLNobody wrote:

O.K., IFF, I think I see what you mean by "pure consciousness." You do not identity it as consciousness without content. As I suggested somewhere above, consciousness is (by definition) always OF something (like the word, focus), but in your "pure" consciousness that "purity" occurs because of the absence of memory. After a period of intense (but profoundly passive/unfocused) awareness one realizes that one was intensely aware of UNRECALLED/UNRECALLABLE content; you have a vague memory of having meditated and that you experienced images, sensations, feelings, thoughts but without having latched onto them (grasping or attaching), i.e., that they simply passed through the mind without footprints, as it were.

I'm not adquately aware of the philosophical literature on consciousness. Fresco has provided us with a good link (that I've only scanned so far) regarding the work of David Chalmers, a pioneering specialist in the area:

http://consc.net/online.html

Wow, that's an impressive list of papers. I'm sure there's some interesting reading there. (Among other things, who wouldn't be curious about zombies?!? *LOL*)

It may be that without a clear experience of pure consciousness, the idea is hard to grasp. It is self-referral. Consciousness becomes aware of itself when there is no content. There is no content when the thought process is quieted and the there is only restful alertness. You are awake but there are no thoughts. It does not happen suddenly. During meditation, the thought process slowly quiets down and thoughts are experienced at a subtler and subtler level. Eventually, a point may be reached in which there is no thought or mental activity, at least for some period of time. This is not appreciated until mental activity resumes and you realize that you were "somewhere else" for a while, but that you weren't asleep. There is often a feeling of energy and bliss that accompanies the emergence from the state of pure consciousness. That is because you have contacted the source of life. You have tapped into the ground of your own being. There is no memory in the conventional sense because there is no specific mental forms to recall. However, the experience of pure consciousness does leave an "imprint" on the mind. The repeated experience appears to change the way the brain functions. The medical research suggests that the brain begins to function in a more holistic manner. Thinking becomes more holistic in the sense that verbal/analytical skills work in conjunction with intuitive/psychic functioning. More left brain/right brain coordination. This makes sense in light of the experience of pure consciousness along with normal activity as the practice matures. The brain develops the ability to function in a more integrated manner while engaged in daily activity.

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IFF, Interesting; are there published material out there about this subject?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

IFF, Interesting; are there published material out there about this subject?

Sure, lots of studies. Here are a few:

Neurophysiology of Meditation

Breakthrough study on EEG of meditation

Scientific Research on Transcendental Meditation

Biofeedback Meditation

There are various meditation techniques. I have practiced Transcendental Meditation ever since the early 70s (as well as other meditation techniques such as visualization, breath awareness, chakra meditation, etc., that I've picked up over the years during my spiritual adventures).

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IFeelFree wrote:

echi wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
echi wrote:
There is no awareness without differentiation. When you experience "pure awareness" what is it that you are aware of?

It is consciousness without being conscious of an object, without any mental activity. It is consciousness being conscious of itself.
If you are conscious of consciousness then (your concept of) "consciousness" is the object.

Consciousness is not a concept. It is prior to, or independent of, the conceptual mind. It is prior to thought.

Of course it is a concept. It is the topic of conversation!

IFF wrote:

It may be that without a clear experience of pure consciousness, the idea is hard to grasp.

It is more likely that without a logically consistent explanation, you are left with the ineffective "seeing is believing" defense. Again, this is basically the same argument that is forwarded by all faith-based superstitions.

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echi, you're right: it IS a "seeing is believing" situation. But remember, people have gone to meditation centers for centuries to receive guidance in achieving such a "seeing." They do not go for conceptual education ABOUT seeing.
Most religions, on the other hand, are "faith-based"; they tell the seeker to just believe. That's not what "mystical" experience is about. It's about having a very subtle but revolutionary change of PERSPECTIVE. That perspective is not achieveable through conceptual understanding or faith--only through practice (meditation of some sort).

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JLN, It seems to me, only an observer, that your "meditation" is not dissimilar to "prayer."

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echi wrote:

IFeelFree wrote:
Consciousness is not a concept. It is prior to, or independent of, the conceptual mind. It is prior to thought.
Of course it is a concept. It is the topic of conversation!

The concept is not the thing itself. I can have a concept of love, but that is not the same thing as the experience of love.

echi wrote:

IFF wrote:
It may be that without a clear experience of pure consciousness, the idea is hard to grasp.
It is more likely that without a logically consistent explanation, you are left with the ineffective "seeing is believing" defense. Again, this is basically the same argument that is forwarded by all faith-based superstitions.

JLNobody answered this pretty well. I'm pretty confident that my explanation is logically consistent. (If not, feel free to point out any contradictions.) Also, I am not suggesting that anyone adopt an attitude of faith. Anyone can adopt a skeptical pose and take up meditation practice without believing anything in particular, in order to investigate the experience. In fact, it is probably best approached with an open mind, as opposed to fixed ideas and expectations. The scientific research suggests that the practice is at least offers some health benefits.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

JLN, It seems to me, only an observer, that your "meditation" is not dissimilar to "prayer."

An important difference is that with prayer you are generally praying to someone or something. It seems to require a belief in God (unless you are praying to yourself?) With meditation, this belief is not required. You are simply trying to quiet the mind so that you can experience another state of consciousness.

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IFF answers echi: "I am not suggesting that anyone adopt an attitude of faith. Anyone can adopt a skeptical pose and take up meditation practice without believing anything in particular, in order to investigate the experience."

Indeed, a central concept in zen is the achievement by the practicioner of meditation of The Great Doubt--a state of mind in which all belief is "suspended" (at least that's my understanding of the great doubt).

C.I., prayer is like the Catholic's "contemplation" or the protestant fundamentalist's conversation with Jesus. Meditation is something else entirely. It is wordless and thoughtless. It is an intense viewing of Reality as it unfolds within you.

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I think "growing old" is a flaw of the physical body. I do not believe the soul ages in the same way our physical body does. I would say it ages only in experience and (hopefully) wisdom gained from experience, and also in its relationship with others and its maker.

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everything else does .....

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