echi wrote:IFeelFree wrote:The concept is not the thing itself. I can have a concept of love, but that is not the same thing as the experience of love.
No. But whenever you talk about it or even think about it you are referencing your concept, not the "thing" itself.
Of course. Talking about it, or thinking about it, is not the experience itself.
Quote:Quote:echi wrote:IFF wrote:It may be that without a clear experience of pure consciousness, the idea is hard to grasp.
It is more likely that without a logically consistent explanation, you are left with the ineffective "seeing is believing" defense. Again, this is basically the same argument that is forwarded by all faith-based superstitions.
JLNobody answered this pretty well. I'm pretty confident that my explanation is logically consistent. (If not, feel free to point out any contradictions.)
I did not see where you offered any explanation.
I'm referring to what I wrote after the sentence "It may be that without a clear experience of pure consciousness, the idea is hard to grasp." I think that is a decent explanation of pure consciousness. I'll repeat it here:
Quote:It may be that without a clear experience of pure consciousness, the idea is hard to grasp. It is self-referral. Consciousness becomes aware of itself when there is no content. There is no content when the thought process is quieted and the there is only restful alertness. You are awake but there are no thoughts. It does not happen suddenly. During meditation, the thought process slowly quiets down and thoughts are experienced at a subtler and subtler level. Eventually, a point may be reached in which there is no thought or mental activity, at least for some period of time. This is not appreciated until mental activity resumes and you realize that you were "somewhere else" for a while, but that you weren't asleep. There is often a feeling of energy and bliss that accompanies the emergence from the state of pure consciousness. That is because you have contacted the source of life. You have tapped into the ground of your own being. There is no memory in the conventional sense because there is no specific mental forms to recall. However, the experience of pure consciousness does leave an "imprint" on the mind. The repeated experience appears to change the way the brain functions. The medical research suggests that the brain begins to function in a more holistic manner. Thinking becomes more holistic in the sense that verbal/analytical skills work in conjunction with intuitive/psychic functioning. More left brain/right brain coordination. This makes sense in light of the experience of pure consciousness along with normal activity as the practice matures. The brain develops the ability to function in a more integrated manner while engaged in daily activity.
Quote:Quote:Also, I am not suggesting that anyone adopt an attitude of faith.
I didn't say that you were, only that you are misrepresenting your faith as fact.
I don't think so. I am trying to present my spiritual experiences, along with an interpretation of what they mean in terms of traditional metaphysics. That is different than saying I read it in a book and I want to believe it is true. It is saying I have had these particular experiences and this is how I am able to understand them. I am open to other interpretations. I'm seeking to share experiences and understanding with others, as I have been able to do with a few people such as JLNobody. If what I say doesn't ring true to anyone, they should reject it, or at least withhold belief unless and until they can confirm it personally in some way.
