2
   

everything else does .....

 
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 01:56 pm
Okay, I'll refine my question. Let's just forget about hell altogether.

What happens to the body when/if the soul goes to Heaven? If you are saying that the body and soul are inseparable, then Heaven will be full of bodies as well as souls.
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:03 pm
kickycan wrote:
Okay, I'll refine my question. Let's just forget about hell altogether.

What happens to the body when/if the soul goes to Heaven? If you are saying that the body and soul are inseparable, then Heaven will be full of bodies as well as souls.

Perhaps you won't mind if I express an opinion here. When a person dies, the physical body falls away, but the person retains a subtle, or astral, body when they enter the higher realms. Souls are always encased in a body until final liberation when all bodies are dropped and the soul merges with the Infinite.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:08 pm
kickycan wrote:
Okay, I'll refine my question. Let's just forget about hell altogether.

What happens to the body when/if the soul goes to Heaven? If you are saying that the body and soul are inseparable, then Heaven will be full of bodies as well as souls.
HEH HEH!

Good idea.

Are you talking about the spiritual body given to those who are resurrected to heaven? Paul mentions this in 1Corinthians 15:44, but it is apparent from other scriptures as well.

Or, perhaps we are refined in the astral plane.

Probably not enough time to search and connect my other post on this subject.

OK, here it is if I'm fast enough to edit:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1302599#1302599
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:14 pm
No, I'm talking about the body we have on earth. If there is some spiritual body, it isn't the same as the body we have now, is it? And if it isn't, then the soul would have to be separated from it's earthly body to then be incorporated into it's new spiritual body, wouldn't it?
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:16 pm
What about the unexplained 8 and ahalf ounces that goes away when you die?

Whats that?
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:17 pm
Ooh, good point, Amigo!
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:19 pm
kickycan wrote:
No, I'm talking about the body we have on earth. If there is some spiritual body, it isn't the same as the body we have now, is it? And if it isn't, then the soul would have to be separated from it's earthly body to then be incorporated into it's new spiritual body, wouldn't it?
Well, if your soul is you, and your soul can die and, as the bible indicates, may also be resurrected, you certainly would no longer have your original body, right? So, would it matter if your new body were a spiritual one? so long as you were alive?

If it were me, of course, I would prefer to live on earth.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:21 pm
Amigo wrote:
What about the unexplained 8 and ahalf ounces that goes away when you die?

Whats that?
That's what was left of my pounder. Put it in the fridge for me.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:22 pm
That isn't the point I'm arguing. Unless I'm misconstruing your point here.

neologist wrote:
Yeah but the soul is not an entity which may be separated from the body; and it is mortal.


How would your soul go into a different "spiritual body" and yet still not be separated from your original body?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:33 pm
kickycan wrote:
That isn't the point I'm arguing. Unless I'm misconstruing your point here.

neologist wrote:
Yeah but the soul is not an entity which may be separated from the body; and it is mortal.


How would your soul go into a different "spiritual body" and yet still not be separated from your original body?
It's never happened to me, understand, so I'll just state what the bible says.

Adam ". . . came to be a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) He didn't have a soul, he was a soul. If he were to be brought back today, he would once again be a soul, regardless of his 'body style' (I feel like a car salesman here. Convertible or Sedan? SUV?)

That is why Jesus, when he took an earthly form, was the same person (soul) that he was as a spirit.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 02:50 pm
Hmmm...I'm still not sure how that amounts to a soul being inseparable from a body.

It says Adam was a soul. Which leads us to the conclusion that the soul is what dies and can be resurrected.

But...according to the bible there is a spiritual body and an earthly one. Is that correct? If that is correct, then one's soul must separate itself from one in order to incorporate itself into the other. Otherwise, all those bodies buried in cemetaries would be gone along with their souls. I think. How does that not make sense?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 03:02 pm
I see what you mean But the soul, when it is dead, has no volition or consciousness. It can't separate from or join anything. In order for the soul to have consciousness, it must be alive. That means a body.

I've no first hand knowledge of the spiritual realm and can't explain a spiritual body. And since the word 'soul' is the translation of the Hebrew 'nephesh' which, transliterated, means 'breather', I can't accurately say that spirits are souls. Apparently they are persons, however.
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 04:09 pm
neologist wrote:
I see what you mean But the soul, when it is dead, has no volition or consciousness. It can't separate from or join anything. In order for the soul to have consciousness, it must be alive. That means a body.

I've no first hand knowledge of the spiritual realm and can't explain a spiritual body. And since the word 'soul' is the translation of the Hebrew 'nephesh' which, transliterated, means 'breather', I can't accurately say that spirits are souls. Apparently they are persons, however.

The word spirit comes from the Latin, 'spirare', which means 'to breath'. The soul, or spirit, "breathes life" into the body. The soul is never dead because it is the life that is in the person. It is the part of the person that is divine. The soul is the consciousness of the individual. We sometimes think that we must have been unconscious or "dead" before this life because of the veil of forgetfulness that is imparted when we incarnate in a physical body. A spiritual body is similar to a physical body except that it is subtle and (usually) cannot be perceived on the physical plane. It allows the soul to interact on the astral or mental planes.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 06:16 pm
bm
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 06:57 pm
IFeelFree wrote:
neologist wrote:
I see what you mean But the soul, when it is dead, has no volition or consciousness. It can't separate from or join anything. In order for the soul to have consciousness, it must be alive. That means a body.

I've no first hand knowledge of the spiritual realm and can't explain a spiritual body. And since the word 'soul' is the translation of the Hebrew 'nephesh' which, transliterated, means 'breather', I can't accurately say that spirits are souls. Apparently they are persons, however.

The word spirit comes from the Latin, 'spirare', which means 'to breath'. The soul, or spirit, "breathes life" into the body. The soul is never dead because it is the life that is in the person. It is the part of the person that is divine. The soul is the consciousness of the individual. We sometimes think that we must have been unconscious or "dead" before this life because of the veil of forgetfulness that is imparted when we incarnate in a physical body. A spiritual body is similar to a physical body except that it is subtle and (usually) cannot be perceived on the physical plane. It allows the soul to interact on the astral or mental planes.


Please post your evidence.
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 08:47 pm
Eorl wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
neologist wrote:
I see what you mean But the soul, when it is dead, has no volition or consciousness. It can't separate from or join anything. In order for the soul to have consciousness, it must be alive. That means a body.

I've no first hand knowledge of the spiritual realm and can't explain a spiritual body. And since the word 'soul' is the translation of the Hebrew 'nephesh' which, transliterated, means 'breather', I can't accurately say that spirits are souls. Apparently they are persons, however.

The word spirit comes from the Latin, 'spirare', which means 'to breath'. The soul, or spirit, "breathes life" into the body. The soul is never dead because it is the life that is in the person. It is the part of the person that is divine. The soul is the consciousness of the individual. We sometimes think that we must have been unconscious or "dead" before this life because of the veil of forgetfulness that is imparted when we incarnate in a physical body. A spiritual body is similar to a physical body except that it is subtle and (usually) cannot be perceived on the physical plane. It allows the soul to interact on the astral or mental planes.


Please post your evidence.

A partial list, off the top of my head:

The Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Theosophic literature (Blavatskay, Leadbetter, Besant, Powell, etc.), Autobiography of a Yogi (Paramhansa Yogananda), the books of Gary Renard, Easy Death (Adi Da Samraj), A Course in Miracles, Life After Death (Deepak Chopra), the writings of Rudolph Steiner, Play of Consciousness: A Spiritual Autobiography (Swami Muktananda), The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception or Mystic Christianity (Max Heindel), the Urantia book, and numerous recorded near-death experiences. Also, there's my personal experiments with consciousness.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 02:57 pm
These are all claims, not evidence per se.

Merely the fact that each of these would contain claims that would be scoffed at by some or all of the others, renders each of them unreliable.

The fact that they have one aspect in common no more proves the existence of a soul, than the fact that many religions believe in more than one god proves that there are any gods at all.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 03:00 pm
Eorl wrote:
These are all claims, not evidence per se.

Merely the fact that each of these would contain claims that would be scoffed at by some or all of the others, renders each of them unreliable.

The fact that they have one aspect in common no more proves the existence of a soul, than the fact that many religions believe in more than one god proves that there are any gods at all.
Perhaps we should add that this represents a large reading assignment. It is customary to provide page and paragraph reference. Of course, you would have to be really familiar with the works to do that.
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 04:52 pm
Eorl wrote:
These are all claims, not evidence per se.

Merely the fact that each of these would contain claims that would be scoffed at by some or all of the others, renders each of them unreliable.

The fact that they have one aspect in common no more proves the existence of a soul, than the fact that many religions believe in more than one god proves that there are any gods at all.

They are claims based on internal experiences. They are not objective evidence. That is the difficulty with knowledge based on subjective experiences. If, for example, someone claims that they are feeling angry, or in love, or bored, we are forced to take their word for it because there is no way to objectively verify (aside from observing possibly misleading behavioral cues). However, there are a few ways in which to seek supportive evidence of subjective experience:

1) Can the experiences be replicated in others? Are they reproducible or fleeting?

2) Are the descriptions internally consistent, and not in contradiction with what we know about the world?

3) Do the descriptions help explain phenomena that are otherwise mysterious? Is there an alternative explanation that has more credibility?

The alternative to considering subjective, intuitive knowing is to restrict all understanding to objective knowledge. The question posed in this thread was about the nature of the soul. I don't know of any way to approach this question except through the experiences of myself and others.

These reference were chosen so that they would not "contain claims that would be scoffed at by some or all of the others". For the most part, the view of these authors are in agreement. There may be some differences in detail or emphasis, but the world-view described are basically the same. There exists non-physical planes in which the soul resides before and after death. These planes can be experienced with sufficiently developed psychic capability, or through a near-death experience in which consciousness temporarily dissociates from the physical body. I have read these books and I don't recall any substantial disagreements.

Since the soul is consciousness itself, it cannot be proved with objective means. Consciousness is awareness, knowing. It is not what is known. It can, however, know itself. That is the experience of self-transcendence, pure consciousness, or Presence.
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 04:55 pm
neologist wrote:
Eorl wrote:
These are all claims, not evidence per se.

Merely the fact that each of these would contain claims that would be scoffed at by some or all of the others, renders each of them unreliable.

The fact that they have one aspect in common no more proves the existence of a soul, than the fact that many religions believe in more than one god proves that there are any gods at all.
Perhaps we should add that this represents a large reading assignment. It is customary to provide page and paragraph reference. Of course, you would have to be really familiar with the works to do that.

That would be a major task. Some of these books I haven't read in many years. If someone is interested, they can find the relevant material.
0 Replies
 
 

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