everything else does .....

IFeelFree wrote:

They are claims based on internal experiences. They are not objective evidence. That is the difficulty with knowledge based on subjective experiences. If, for example, someone claims that they are feeling angry, or in love, or bored, we are forced to take their word for it because there is no way to objectively verify (aside from observing possibly misleading behavioral cues). However, there are a few ways in which to seek supportive evidence of subjective experience:

1) Can the experiences be replicated in others? Are they reproducible or fleeting?

2) Are the descriptions internally consistent, and not in contradiction with what we know about the world?

3) Do the descriptions help explain phenomena that are otherwise mysterious? Is there an alternative explanation that has more credibility?

The alternative to considering subjective, intuitive knowing is to restrict all understanding to objective knowledge. The question posed in this thread was about the nature of the soul. I don't know of any way to approach this question except through the experiences of myself and others.

These reference were chosen so that they would not "contain claims that would be scoffed at by some or all of the others". For the most part, the view of these authors are in agreement. There may be some differences in detail or emphasis, but the world-view described are basically the same. There exists non-physical planes in which the soul resides before and after death. These planes can be experienced with sufficiently developed psychic capability, or through a near-death experience in which consciousness temporarily dissociates from the physical body. I have read these books and I don't recall any substantial disagreements.

Since the soul is consciousness itself, it cannot be proved with objective means. Consciousness is awareness, knowing. It is not what is known. It can, however, know itself. That is the experience of self-transcendence, pure consciousness, or Presence.

I don't see how your claim is any different to my five-year olds certainty about what happens on December 25th. What you claim as "intuitive knowledge" needs downgrading to "intuitive guesses". The problem is that my intuition tells me that there are no souls. It's by far the simplest explanation for all the phenomena, as I see it. "Knowing" you are right is no different than those who know that their god (or gods) are real, and they've got books to back them up too.

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From Mystic Christianity:

Quote:

We have to say here, at this point, that we have no sympathy for the so-called "infidel" opinion, which holds that the whole tale of the Virgin Birth was invented to conceal the illegitimate birth of Jesus. Such a view is based neither on intelligent investigation or criticism, or upon the occult teachings. It was merely "invented" itself, by those who were unable to accept current theology and who, when driven from the churches, built up a crude system of reconstructed Biblical History of their own. And so we shall not stop to even consider this view of the matter, but shall pass on to the scholarly objectors and their views and thence to the Occult Teachings.

...or in other words,
"let's ignore the idea that nothing supernatural happened. That's not what we are about. Those people are just horrible atheists, and it's boring to even discuss...Now, let's get to work with some more interesting theories!!"

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Eorl wrote:

I don't see how your claim is any different to my five-year olds certainty about what happens on December 25th. What you claim as "intuitive knowledge" needs downgrading to "intuitive guesses". The problem is that my intuition tells me that there are no souls. It's by far the simplest explanation for all the phenomena, as I see it. "Knowing" you are right is no different than those who know that their god (or gods) are real, and they've got books to back them up too.

The difference between my claims and those of your five-year old is the following: Your five-year old is making a claim about the world -- that there exists a Santa Claus who distributes gifts, etc. -- that can readily be disproved with objective evidence. No knowledgeable adult who has looked into the "Santa Claus" thesis has found a rational world-view which includes Santa Claus, except as a pleasant fantasy to entertain children. The claim I am making does not violate any objective facts about the world that I am aware of. It presents a self-consistent world-view which sheds light on otherwise mysterious phenomena, namely, the spiritual experiences of countless individuals throughout the world and throughout history, as well as many of the esoteric teachings of the sacred texts, the activities of mystics, saints, yogis, shamans, medicine men, psychics, etc., and psychic and near-death experiences. I have had many such experiences myself. I have two choices -- assume that I'm crazy, even though I have no other evidence to support that view, or that these are genuine spiritual experiences. On the other hand, I have participated in studies intended measure the physiological and psychological effects of meditation, breathing exercises, and yoga. For anyone who cares to look into it, there is objective evidence that these practices confer benefits to body and mind. Therefore, it is not a big stretch for me to take the notion of a spiritual dimension seriously.

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But the fact of the matter remains that the soul does not survive death. There is no consciousness in the grave. Whatever cataleptic experiences we may achieve in a state of meditation or near death may easily be explained by a study of neurochemistry.

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IFeelFree wrote:

Eorl wrote:

I don't see how your claim is any different to my five-year olds certainty about what happens on December 25th. What you claim as "intuitive knowledge" needs downgrading to "intuitive guesses". The problem is that my intuition tells me that there are no souls. It's by far the simplest explanation for all the phenomena, as I see it. "Knowing" you are right is no different than those who know that their god (or gods) are real, and they've got books to back them up too.

The difference between my claims and those of your five-year old is the following: Your five-year old is making a claim about the world -- that there exists a Santa Claus who distributes gifts, etc. -- that can readily be disproved with objective evidence. No knowledgeable adult who has looked into the "Santa Claus" thesis has found a rational world-view which includes Santa Claus, except as a pleasant fantasy.

That's exactly how I view religion, and this mysterious "soul", yet people still try to claim it is rational. It isn't. Santa Claus cannot be disproved and more than any gods (or souls) can. That why they need to be proved before rational people accept it.

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IFeelFree wrote:

Eorl wrote:

I have two choices -- assume that I'm crazy, even though I have no other evidence to support that view, or that these are genuine spiritual experiences. On the other hand, I have participated in studies intended measure the physiological and psychological effects of meditation, breathing exercises, and yoga. For anyone who cares to look into it, there is objective evidence that these practices confer benefits to body and mind. Therefore, it is not a big stretch for me to take the notion of a spiritual dimension seriously.

No, you have far more than two choices. The benefits of yoga is a perfect example of why such beliefs exist. Yoga attributes causes to effects that may or may not be true. The existence of the effect does not prove the given assumed cause.

For me, it's about knowing the difference between knowledge and belief.

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Eorl wrote:

That's exactly how I view religion, and this mysterious "soul", yet people still try to claim it is rational. It isn't. Santa Claus cannot be disproved and more than any gods (or souls) can. That why they need to be proved before rational people accept it.

No. Belief in Santa Claus is a belief in objective facts about the world that can be verified to be untrue -- we can stay up all night on Christmas Eve and verify that Santa Claus does not come and deposit gifts under the tree, or whatever. It is falsifiable. As for a belief in a spiritual dimension, there must real effects that cannot readily be explained otherwise. It is incorrect to say that any belief we hold must rest on "proof". Even the tenets of science cannot be proved, since we cannot test every case and every condition. (Newton's theory of gravity was "true" until general relativity was proposed, and then Newton's theory was found to be an approximation -- strictly speaking, false.) Scientific theories are never proved. They are falsifiable. An argument sometimes made against spiritual truths is that they are not falsifiable, but that is incorrect. Spiritual descriptions provide an explanation for subjective experiences which can be falsified if a better explanation or cause is found, i.e., the person has a brain tumor, or whatever.

So you can't ask for proof. The only statements that can be proved are mathematical ones (and even mathematical proofs rest on assumptions). It would be absurd to limit your beliefs only to mathematical theorems. What you can ask for is evidence. The primary evidence for the spiritual dimension is your own subjective experience, supported by similar experiences of others. This is similar to science in which an experiment is duplicated by others to in order to verify that similar results are obtained. Like science, verifying a spiritual explanation requires that you investigate and conduct your own "experiments" to obtain evidence supporting or falsifying the theory.

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Funny, but your argument is similar to the one i use to test my faith. But at least I have the observable behavior of other believers to steady my vision.

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neologist wrote:

But the fact of the matter remains that the soul does not survive death. There is no consciousness in the grave. Whatever cataleptic experiences we may achieve in a state of meditation or near death may easily be explained by a study of neurochemistry.

You are claiming something to be a fact which you can't know. The most you can say is that you don't know if the soul survives death of the body. To try to explain away meditative states or near-death experiences by "neurochemistry" is a red herring. There is no experiment that you can do that will prove that you are not just a brain in a laboratory being simulated by electrodes so that you think you are having this experience. Any experience could be explained by "neurochemistry", if you are so inclined. I have had numerous experiences, supported by the experiences of many others, that lead me to believe that consciousness, or the soul, can exist independent of the physical body, and survives the death of the body.

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Eorl wrote:

No, you have far more than two choices. The benefits of yoga is a perfect example of why such beliefs exist. Yoga attributes causes to effects that may or may not be true. The existence of the effect does not prove the given assumed cause.

There you go with that word "proof" again. Nothing can be proved (with the possible exception of mathematical theorems). There is only evidence and falsifiability. The effects of yoga may require an explanation. There may be an explanation of cause in terms of human physiology, but I haven't seen it (and I've read up on the subject). The most that I've seen is a catalog of the physiological effects of these practices -- lowered metabolism, brain wave effects, changes in blood chemistry, etc. -- but that does not give a cause. The spiritual explanation offers a conceptual framework that helps explain and makes sense of the experience.

Quote:

For me, it's about knowing the difference between knowledge and belief.

Tell me then, in your view, what is the difference between knowledge and belief?

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neologist wrote:

Funny, but your argument is similar to the one i use to test my faith. But at least I have the observable behavior of other believers to steady my vision.

I have no idea what you mean here.

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IFeelFree wrote:

neologist wrote:
But the fact of the matter remains that the soul does not survive death. There is no consciousness in the grave. Whatever cataleptic experiences we may achieve in a state of meditation or near death may easily be explained by a study of neurochemistry.

You are claiming something to be a fact which you can't know. The most you can say is that you don't know if the soul survives death of the body. To try to explain away meditative states or near-death experiences by "neurochemistry" is a red herring. There is no experiment that you can do that will prove that you are not just a brain in a laboratory being simulated by electrodes so that you think you are having this experience. Any experience could be explained by "neurochemistry", if you are so inclined. I have had numerous experiences, supported by the experiences of many others, that lead me to believe that consciousness, or the soul, can exist independent of the physical body, and survives the death of the body.

Well, I could quote the bible as my authority. That usually generates a great caterwauling from the bible gallery, especially because it is what the bible says. But how about the plain old BS test? If it looks like BS and it smells like BS and it sticks to your shoes like BS, then perhaps it is BS.

Do you think you might enlist the help of some departed soul, perhaps one with a grudge, to assist you in breaking a casino? NO, wait! How about Powerball?

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neologist wrote:

IFeelFree wrote:
neologist wrote:
But the fact of the matter remains that the soul does not survive death. There is no consciousness in the grave. Whatever cataleptic experiences we may achieve in a state of meditation or near death may easily be explained by a study of neurochemistry.

You are claiming something to be a fact which you can't know. The most you can say is that you don't know if the soul survives death of the body. To try to explain away meditative states or near-death experiences by "neurochemistry" is a red herring. There is no experiment that you can do that will prove that you are not just a brain in a laboratory being simulated by electrodes so that you think you are having this experience. Any experience could be explained by "neurochemistry", if you are so inclined. I have had numerous experiences, supported by the experiences of many others, that lead me to believe that consciousness, or the soul, can exist independent of the physical body, and survives the death of the body.
Well, I could quote the bible as my authority. That usually generates a great caterwauling from the bible gallery, especially because it is what the bible says. But how about the plain old BS test? If it looks like BS and it smells like BS and it sticks to your shoes like BS, then perhaps it is BS.

That is a more honest position. There's nothing in your experience to allow you to believe that what I say is true. You haven't done the "experiment", so you can't accept the "theory". You probably haven't tested relativity or quantum theory either, but you accept those theories on the basis that you trust the authorities who say they've done the experiments and shown them to true.

All I can say is that, in the spiritual realm, I have done the "experiment" and I have uncovered a wealth of evidence that supports the "theory". From my point of view, there is no way to explain the range of experiences that I have had without admitting to a spiritual dimension. The numerous recorded experiences of others provide confirmation. You could claim that my experiences were induced by suggestion, but that can't explain the full range of sometimes dramatic and unexpected experiences that I have had. To claim placebo effect or suggestion becomes absurd at some point.

Quote:

Do you think you might enlist the help of some departed soul, perhaps one with a grudge, to assist you in breaking a casino? NO, wait! How about Powerball?

What makes you think that the departed have any special knowledge about the world or can predict the future? They are pretty much as they were here, just in a different place and in a subtle body, as opposed to a physical body. If they lost at gambling here on earth, they wouldn't be any better at it in the astral plane. Furthermore, they probably have limited interest in what is happening on the earth -- about as much as we are concerned about events in the astral plane.

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Hello to you Neo and IFeelFree!

It's interesting to read your posts and I'm sorry to and if I interfere in your debate, but if you like to answer these two questions, it will be highly appreciated.

1. To you Neo, will you pls. explain how it comes that Jesus stated in Matthew 13:42 that they would be able to be wailing and gnashing of teeth, when the death is definite, whether they are in Sheol or Hades, if the death of a person is absolute, with no thoughts, love and hate as described in the Scriptures and what comes forth in Ecclesiastes 9:10?

Matthew 13:42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Ecclesiastes 9:10. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

2. To you IFeelFree, will you pls. explain whats left behind after you cut the blood and oxygen to the brain, since it will without no discussion stop any form of activity and will it be possible to collect or get use of the memory from a dead brain and what form has it taken as a "Soul"

To above explain what happen with the data in a computers dynamic RAM memory when you cut of the Power. Will there still be some kind of "Soul" going around in universe, with the data who have been lost in the RAM?

It is hereafter with great expectations I look forward to your answers, if you like to make any to my inquiries.

With Christian love.

Talkactive

Ecclesiastes 1:18!

For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People can't hear and carry the truth, because the lies are tickling their ears!

Jeremiah 8:8!

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

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Quote:

If it looks like BS and it smells like BS and it sticks to your shoes
like BS, then perhaps it is BS.

Neo, I know that is from 'Revelations' but I can't seem to locate it ..... chapter and verse please.

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Why Talky; How kind of you to join some other threads.

Are you unsure of the condition of the dead?

Matthew 13:42 should be considered along with a few other scriptures:

(Psalm 112:10) The wicked one himself will see and certainly become vexed. He will grind his very teeth and actually melt away. The desire of the wicked ones will perish.

(Matthew 8:12) whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be."

(Luke 13:28) There is where [YOUR] weeping and the gnashing of [YOUR] teeth will be, when YOU see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside.

BTW, No need to shout. We can hear you just fine.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Quote:
If it looks like BS and it smells like BS and it sticks to your shoes
like BS, then perhaps it is BS.

Neo, I know that is from 'Revelations' but I can't seem to locate it ..... chapter and verse please.

Why Neo 3:11, of course. Laughing

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neologist wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:
If it looks like BS and it smells like BS and it sticks to your shoes
like BS, then perhaps it is BS.

Neo, I know that is from 'Revelations' but I can't seem to locate it ..... chapter and verse please.
Why Neo 3:11, of course.

sheesh ... I feel so thick.

As an addendum to the thread I would like to ask: 'do souls have bowel movements as Neo 3:11 would suggest'?

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Gelisgesti wrote:

neologist wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:
If it looks like BS and it smells like BS and it sticks to your shoes
like BS, then perhaps it is BS.

Neo, I know that is from 'Revelations' but I can't seem to locate it ..... chapter and verse please.
Why Neo 3:11, of course.

sheesh ... I feel so thick.

As an addendum to the thread I would like to ask: 'do souls have bowel movements as Neo 3:11 would suggest'?

Since, according to the bible, you are a soul, I would suggest that if you are asking that question, you should see a physician immediately.

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neologist wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
neologist wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:
If it looks like BS and it smells like BS and it sticks to your shoes
like BS, then perhaps it is BS.

Neo, I know that is from 'Revelations' but I can't seem to locate it ..... chapter and verse please.
Why Neo 3:11, of course.

sheesh ... I feel so thick.

As an addendum to the thread I would like to ask: 'do souls have bowel movements as Neo 3:11 would suggest'?
Since, according to the bible, you are a soul, I would suggest that if you are asking that question, you should see a physician immediately.

HOLY SHlT!

[ don't you just love mindless innuendo]

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everything else does .....

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