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IF THE SHRUB PARDONS LIBBY . . .

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 02:45 pm
dlowan wrote:
okie wrote:
Well, alot of you guys feel so sorry for terrorist suspects and want them turned loose, so I thought surely you would be in favor of the family man, Libby, being excused from suffering likely torture in a prison somewhere?



Libby was duly convicted in a court of law, with access to the best lawyers and all the human rights guaranteed to the rich and unfluential.


I guess that means he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.



A tad different from people deliberately sequestered from all rule of law and, tortured, and considered guilty no matter what.


But I guess you wouldn't understand that sort of thing.



shrugs


So,are you saying that everyone convicted in a court of law is actually guilty and does not deserve a pardon at all?
Does that include the FALN terrorists that Bill Clinton pardoned,so Hillary could get elected?
Does that include those that bought their pardons?

Lets look at all the people Clinton pardoned...
http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htm

Since all of them were convicted in a court of law,then none of them deserved the pardon,correct?

BTW,LIbby was NOT pardoned,and I personally dont think he will be.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 02:45 pm
mysteryman wrote:
kickycan wrote:
This is not a partisan issue. It should piss everyone off on both sides. It should show us just how corrupt our government has become. People in positions of power can break the law and then be let completely off the hook right in front of our faces, and all we can do is bicker about partisan bullshit. It's both sides. It's our government being corrupted further and further right before our eyes. And we seem to be okay with it, unless it's the other side doing it. What these fatcat assh*les are doing is blatantly pissing all over the law, no matter how you look at it.

Our government has no ethical compass anymore. Ah, screw it. It's good entertainment watching our government eat itself from within.


What makes you thin Libby was "let off the hook"?
He still has to pay a huge fine,he will lose his law license and therefore be disbarred,he will lose his right to vote,and he will be a convicted felon and therefore ineligible for many jobs.

That sure doesnt sound like being "let off the hook" to me.


Bull crap. His legal defense fund raised over 5 million from rich Republicans, you don't think they will pay his fine as well? C'mon.

And, what's more, none of what you say will actually happen. He won't lose his license, he won't be ineligable for anything. Because Bush will just wait until the end of his term, and pardon Libby.

He was let off the hook, completely, and you know it. Paris Hilton did more jail time then Libby, who was convicted of perjury and Obstruction of Justice.

Quote:

But Clinton wasn't punished. Indeed, apart from the impeachment, no criminal charges were filed.


They should have been. But, instead of pursuing that route, the Republicans chose to go for impeachment in the Congress, and failed.

Actually, I'm not sure that criminal charges could have been filed; can you charge a sitting president with such crimes?

Not that it matters. This 'Clinton Equivalency' game is nothing but bullshite and you know it, George. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 02:47 pm
Quote:
Because Bush will just wait until the end of his term, and pardon Libby.


I doubt it.
I dont think Bush will pardon him,because I think LIbby will win his appeal.
But either way,I dont think Bush will pardon him,if he was going to he would have already,IMHO.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 02:53 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Quote:
Because Bush will just wait until the end of his term, and pardon Libby.


I doubt it.
I dont think Bush will pardon him,because I think LIbby will win his appeal.
But either way,I dont think Bush will pardon him,if he was going to he would have already,IMHO.


You're simply wrong. Bush didn't pardon libby right now b/c that would remove his 5th amendment protection, and the Dems could haul him in and make him start answering questions about the case in Congress.

At the end of the term, however, what does he have to lose? Nothing.

I note that you didn't respond to the fact that Libby will merely have his rich friends pay the fine for him.

Why is it you think Libby will win his appeal? Upon what basis do you believe that Walton ran a faulty trial? There has to have been significant errors in the trial process for an appeal to be sucessful. You seem quite confident that Libby would win an appeal, so I thought maybe you could spell out exactly why you think this.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 03:03 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Quote:
Because Bush will just wait until the end of his term, and pardon Libby.


I doubt it.
I dont think Bush will pardon him,because I think LIbby will win his appeal.
But either way,I dont think Bush will pardon him,if he was going to he would have already,IMHO.


You're simply wrong. Bush didn't pardon libby right now b/c that would remove his 5th amendment protection, and the Dems could haul him in and make him start answering questions about the case in Congress.

Sorry,but unless he agrees to talk,his 5ht amendment rights can not be "removed".At the end of the term, however, what does he have to lose? Nothing.

I note that you didn't respond to the fact that Libby will merely have his rich friends pay the fine for him.

What evidence do you have that someone else will pay the fine?
And if the money comes out of his defense fund,its still his money paying the fine
.

Why is it you think Libby will win his appeal? Upon what basis do you believe that Walton ran a faulty trial? There has to have been significant errors in the trial process for an appeal to be sucessful. You seem quite confident that Libby would win an appeal, so I thought maybe you could spell out exactly why you think this.

I didnt pay alot of attention to the trial,so I cant address the specifics.
I just have a "gut feeling",is the best way I can put it.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 03:04 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Quote:
Because Bush will just wait until the end of his term, and pardon Libby.


I doubt it.
I dont think Bush will pardon him,because I think LIbby will win his appeal.
But either way,I dont think Bush will pardon him,if he was going to he would have already,IMHO.


With all due respect, I must ask you, are you out of your mind?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 03:18 pm
Quote:

Sorry,but unless he agrees to talk,his 5ht amendment rights can not be "removed".


I'm sorry, but this is simply incorrect.

Libby cannot assert the 5th for a crime he's been pardoned or immunized for. The 5th protects against self-incrimination. If you can't be charged for the crime, there's no incrimination possible.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 03:42 pm
I wonder how much money Mysteryman will put up to say that Libby won't end up with a full presidential pardon...

A pardon seems pretty darn likely...

And both a judge and a jury think that an appeal is pretty unlikely.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 04:15 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
I wonder how much money Mysteryman will put up to say that Libby won't end up with a full presidential pardon...

A pardon seems pretty darn likely...

And both a judge and a jury think that an appeal is pretty unlikely.


Name the bet!!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 05:30 pm
WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush forced the CIA leak case into uncharted legal territory when he commuted the prison sentence of former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, a federal judge said Tuesday.

Bush eliminated Libby's 2 1/2-year prison term and left in place his two years of supervised release. But supervised release -- a form of probation -- is only available to people who have served prison time. Without prison, it's unclear what happens next.

U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton posed the question to Libby's attorneys and to Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald: Does this mean Libby won't actually be required to serve supervised release? Should he just have to report to probation officials as if he spent time in prison?

The law, Walton said in court documents, "does not appear to contemplate a situation in which a defendant may be placed under supervised release without first completing a term of incarceration."

For now, it appears Libby is in legal limbo. Walton gave both sides until Monday to respond.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cia_leak_confusion
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 08:47 pm
Bush won't rule out full Libby pardon By BEN FELLER, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 42 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday refused to rule out an eventual pardon for I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, leaving open the chance he may wipe away the former White House aide's criminal record after already erasing his prison sentence.


"I rule nothing in or nothing out," Bush said when asked about whether he might pardon Libby before leaving office in January 2009.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 08:48 pm
Ofcoarse, he's going to pardon Libby.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 09:49 pm
snood wrote:
Okie, where and when were you in the Army?


Huh? What does that have to do with Scooter Libby, Snood? Why do you ask?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 10:08 pm
okie wrote:
snood wrote:
Okie, where and when were you in the Army?


Huh? What does that have to do with Scooter Libby, Snood? Why do you ask?

You brought up your service, apropos of nothing in this thread... talking about how you had endured "torture" - trying to make a snide point. It made me curious... anything wrong with that?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2007 10:31 pm
None Snood. Late 60's, drafted, infantry, Vietnam. I thought we had talked about this before. On another thread or two quite some time ago, I have explained how my time in Vietnam made it abundantly clear in my mind about John Kerry's record, and that was a primary reason I donated to the Swift Boat People, and first started participating in their forum. Since I was personally familiar with Vietnam, when I read all of the details given by the Swiftees, I had no trouble whatsoever in determining who made sense and who didn't. When that election campaign came to a close, I decided that debating politics was sort of addictive, and ended up on this forum to continue the bad habit.

I know I made a joke about torture, but it has a very real application in terms of experience. If you make prisoners do what soldiers are required to do both in training and after, I am absolute 100% positive that certain politicians trying to make political hay, such as Dick Durbin and his ilk, will make accusations of us acting like Hitler's Nazis. Further, I made a joke about farming. Similarly, if you make prisoners at Gitmo put up a few hundred bales of hay, daily, for a few days running, in 100 degree heat, with part of the work inside very dusty and hot barns with very inadequate ventilation, and you end up at close of day with sweat drenched clothing, cuts and scrapes on your arms and hands, and all the rest, again you would have Durbin and his ilk making the same accusations.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jul, 2007 05:59 am
Thanks for 'splaining.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jul, 2007 06:21 am
okie wrote:
None Snood. Late 60's, drafted, infantry, Vietnam. I thought we had talked about this before. On another thread or two quite some time ago, I have explained how my time in Vietnam made it abundantly clear in my mind about John Kerry's record, and that was a primary reason I donated to the Swift Boat People, and first started participating in their forum. Since I was personally familiar with Vietnam, when I read all of the details given by the Swiftees, I had no trouble whatsoever in determining who made sense and who didn't. When that election campaign came to a close, I decided that debating politics was sort of addictive, and ended up on this forum to continue the bad habit.

I know I made a joke about torture, but it has a very real application in terms of experience. If you make prisoners do what soldiers are required to do both in training and after, I am absolute 100% positive that certain politicians trying to make political hay, such as Dick Durbin and his ilk, will make accusations of us acting like Hitler's Nazis. Further, I made a joke about farming. Similarly, if you make prisoners at Gitmo put up a few hundred bales of hay, daily, for a few days running, in 100 degree heat, with part of the work inside very dusty and hot barns with very inadequate ventilation, and you end up at close of day with sweat drenched clothing, cuts and scrapes on your arms and hands, and all the rest, again you would have Durbin and his ilk making the same accusations.



Again OK, were you sodomized while in military service or while working on the farm? Against yor will, that is.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jul, 2007 11:23 am
snood wrote:
Thanks for 'splaining.

You are more than welcome. Have a pleasant holiday, Snood.

You too, Roxxxanne. Are you flying your flag today?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jul, 2007 11:38 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday refused to rule out an eventual pardon for I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, leaving open the chance he may wipe away the former White House aide's criminal record after already erasing his prison sentence.

Clever -- at least that's what I would do in Bush's position. If I didn't keep him out of jail, Libby would have nothing to lose by singing. If I pardoned him altogether right now, he'd have nothing to gain by not singing. I smell a January 19th pardon for Libby, similar to Clinton's for his brother in 2001.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jul, 2007 11:49 am
Thomas wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday refused to rule out an eventual pardon for I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, leaving open the chance he may wipe away the former White House aide's criminal record after already erasing his prison sentence.

Clever -- at least that's what I would do in Bush's position. If I didn't keep him out of jail, Libby would have nothing to lose by singing. If I pardoned him altogether right now, he'd have nothing to gain by not singing. I smell a January 19th pardon for Libby, similar to Clinton's for his brother in 2001.

There isn't a particle of evidence that Libby has anything to sing about, but the anti-Bush movement consists largely of conspiracy theories. I think that it was in the worst possible taste for the president to spare a friend of his from justice, but there's no evidence that his motive was anything other than the inclination to help a buddy.
0 Replies
 
 

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