Federal ID: The "Real-ID" ?

USAFHokie80 wrote:

No, the ID won't tell you their intentions, but it will tell an agency their past history. Someone convited for multiple DUI's should perhaps not be allowed to buy alcohol. The liquor store could swipe the ID and see this before they sold it.

For one, there is no law that says that a person convicted of multiple DUIs cannot buy alcohol. Second, such a scheme as you suggest puts liquor store owners in a position of law enforcement.

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As for sex offenders... Right now, they are required to register on their own with the local authorities. Of course, many of them don't. However, if this is the case and one went to a liquor store or a dmv or something, his ID would flag. I don't realistically think we could limit where they live with this... and I'm not sure we should. But this would help ensure that they are registering like they're supposed to.

I have a problem with using a national id for people tracking. You can make an argument that child predators require tracking, but there are ways to do that without tracking all of us -- they have this technology for cars and pets. Of course, once the ability to track people is widespread it is only a matter of time before we are all tracked. I have a problem with this and the amount of power it cedes to the government over individual movement.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I don't mean state regulated. I asked for agency, with sworn-in officers.

I wasn't aware that "sworn in officers" was a requirement for an agency.

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I agree, FreeDuck.

I mean, we are used to ID really since nearly exactly 70 years. Nut any of our ID-cards has less information on them than some driver licences in the USA - due to our constituion and the related private data protection laws.

(And opposite to common prejudicies, we don't have to carry our ID-card always with us but we only have to have one from 16 onwards = to legitimate when buying cigarettes and alcohol for instance :wink: )

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I'm not in favor of ID cards that can be tracked with GPS. I am in favor of being able to identify people who have proved they are a danger to society. As far as the liquor issue goes, it would be a small matter to pass laws denying liquor to habitual drunk drivers in the same way that purchasing a firearm is forbidden to convicted felons.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Well, as a libertarian mama, nobody distrusts government more than I do. I do, however, accept the government's constitutional role to defend the people of the United States against enemies, both foreign and domestic. As I posted earlier, the government can take away our freedoms, at least for awhile, any time it wants to. We trust that the people we empower to govern us value personal freedoms as much as we do. When that is no longer true, then we will have one hell of a revolution and/or civil war here again. Meanwhile, one additional tool to help government do its job better is not likely to take away any of our freedoms or rights.

I see it as a slippery slope, which is an argument you should be familiar with. If you mistrust the government as you say you do then you should be wary of any attempt at massive collections of personal information in the government's hands. And you most certainly should be wary of any sort of people tracking system. Imagine, if you will, a Liberal version of GW Bush and an equally submissive Liberal Congress. Imagine that they decided to take this one-man-rule concept and stretch it a bit and added the Republican party as a terrorist group. Suppose your id identified you as a member of the Republican party.

Every power granted the government has the potential to be abused. The more we give them, the more opportunities they have for abuse.

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FreeDuck wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:
No, the ID won't tell you their intentions, but it will tell an agency their past history. Someone convited for multiple DUI's should perhaps not be allowed to buy alcohol. The liquor store could swipe the ID and see this before they sold it.

For one, there is no law that says that a person convicted of multiple DUIs cannot buy alcohol. Second, such a scheme as you suggest puts liquor store owners in a position of law enforcement.

Quote:
As for sex offenders... Right now, they are required to register on their own with the local authorities. Of course, many of them don't. However, if this is the case and one went to a liquor store or a dmv or something, his ID would flag. I don't realistically think we could limit where they live with this... and I'm not sure we should. But this would help ensure that they are registering like they're supposed to.

I have a problem with using a national id for people tracking. You can make an argument that child predators require tracking, but there are ways to do that without tracking all of us -- they have this technology for cars and pets. Of course, once the ability to track people is widespread it is only a matter of time before we are all tracked. I have a problem with this and the amount of power it cedes to the government over individual movement.

you're right, those laws don't exist - but they should.

as far as "people tracking" i don't think you really have any idea what this technology is or how it works. it's not like a homing device where they can fly around in helicopters and find you. they can't "track" in real-time. they can at MOST see where you've been and only when they poll that location. what you're proposing would actually allow active tracking, and would require the attachment or implantation of a GPS transciever or similar technology.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

as far as "people tracking" i don't think you really have any idea what this technology is or how it works. it's not like a homing device where they can fly around in helicopters and find you.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. What I was talking about is, in fact, a GPS device.

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they can't "track" in real-time. they can at MOST see where you've been and only when they poll that location. what you're proposing would actually allow active tracking, and would require the attachment or implantation of a GPS transciever or similar technology.

I'm not proposing it. I'm saying if you want to track people who are a danger to society this would be preferable to requiring all of us to have all sorts of non-identification related information encoded in a national id card.

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FreeDuck wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:

as far as "people tracking" i don't think you really have any idea what this technology is or how it works. it's not like a homing device where they can fly around in helicopters and find you.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. What I was talking about is, in fact, a GPS device.

Quote:
they can't "track" in real-time. they can at MOST see where you've been and only when they poll that location. what you're proposing would actually allow active tracking, and would require the attachment or implantation of a GPS transciever or similar technology.

I'm not proposing it. I'm saying if you want to track people who are a danger to society this would be preferable to requiring all of us to have all sorts of non-identification related information encoded in a national id card.

Well then you are completely off base. A national ID is not and cannot be a GPS device.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

Well then you are completely off base. A national ID is not and cannot be a GPS device.

I never said it was.

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But if you weren't a habitual drunk driver, you wouldn't have the chip in your ID card. But everybody would have to HAVE an ID card which would keep the drunk from dumping his card and swearing he was clean as new fallen snow.

We all have to show ID to buy liquor now, or we should. If the ID was a federally issued photo ID instead of a state Driver's license, how would that be an inconvenience or threatening?

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FreeDuck wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:

Well then you are completely off base. A national ID is not and cannot be a GPS device.

I never said it was.

So then why are you even on this thread if you're discussing things outside of the realm of the thread? We are not talking about a GPS tracking unit. We're talking about an ID CARD

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I suggest you go back and re-read my post. You seem to have misunderstood what exactly I was saying.

I will repeat my take on this issue. National ID cards should never be used for tracking people or as a means of data collection other than what is strictly necessary to validate that a person is who they say they are. I think that is clearly within the topic of this thread, whereas preventing drunk drivers from buying booze and restricting the whereabouts of sex offenders isn't.

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I don't think the drunk driver thing is likely, I was using it just to demonstrate the uses.

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And I started it as a rationale for how a National ID card could be a useful thing. If it isn't used for any practical purposes other than proving who a person is, then why not just make state issued Driver's licenses or photo ID's impervious to forging and continue to use those for positive ID?

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I'm ok with that. Except, I think you'll find that there is nothing impervious to forging. But we can certainly make it extremely difficult.

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Could someone please list the negatives of having a national ID card that is counterfeit-proof.

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For how long counterfeit-proof? Days, weeks, months?

I suppose, any national printing office tries to print such ID-cards.
Sometimes it takes, sometimes it can't be done 100% properly, but over sooner or later you can buy any ID-card illegally.

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Digital signatures and certificates cannot be forged. The ID may physically be copied with all the precision of the original, but the data stored on it cannot be diplicated.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

Digital signatures and certificates cannot be forged. The ID may physically be copied with all the precision of the original, but the data stored on it cannot be diplicated.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.

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ebrown_p wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:
Digital signatures and certificates cannot be forged. The ID may physically be copied with all the precision of the original, but the data stored on it cannot be diplicated.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.

Well then by allllll means, explain to me how you can reverse asymmetric encryption. It's not called asymmetric for nothin'

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Federal ID: The "Real-ID" ?

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