6
   

Fine-Tuning 16, The Generic "He" and How to Avoid It

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 08:00 am
@Roberta,

Quote:
I don't care what the majority says. I don't care what everybody says. I'm not talking about usage. I'm talking about what makes sense to ME.


Now that remark has my sympathy, because it comes right out of the McTag Book of English Usage.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 08:03 am
@Setanta,

Quote:
what is wrong with "one?"


Nothing very much, if you are in the 1st Person.

"They" is 3rd Person, plural... and singular, as shown.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 08:31 am
@McTag,
That is a false and facile statement which ignores the utility of "one" when used to supplant the third person.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 08:35 am
At Dictionary-dot-com, referring to one used as a pronoun:

Quote:
any person indefinitely; anyone: as good as one would desire.


Just because one is used in England as a substitute for "I" does not mean that that is the only use for it as a pronoun.
Joe Nation
 
  3  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 09:57 am
My girlfriend and I discussed this.

I said When a person makes a mistake, he should admit his error, learn from it, and move on.
should always be written When a person makes a mistake, she should admit her error, learn from it and move on.

I am writing this out on the porch.

Joe(where I slept last night)Nation
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 09:59 am
@Joe Nation,
Are you saying she still lets you use her WiFi?
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 10:00 am
@Thomas,
Shhhh.....I don't think she's figured that out yet. If she ever does, she will disconnect th
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 12:37 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Just because one is used in England as a substitute for "I" does not mean that that is the only use for it as a pronoun.


NOTE: SETANTA WAS RIGHT ABOUT SOMETHING!!!!!!!!

Set aside the humor for a moment, [no pun intended], you are correct, Set. Roberta ignores this very salient fact because she has a lifetime invested in this prescription.

Saying that 'they' is always plural is like saying that 'you' is always plural and 'you' is always a subject pronoun. It's very common in English for words to hold different meanings and to do different grammatical jobs. 'you' and 'we' are fine examples and 'they' is no different.

As off topic as you were, [McTag likely didn't want to tell you directly] you inadvertently offered support for my position. That must really fry your butt. Smile
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 03:22 pm
@Setanta,

Quote:
That is a false and facile statement which ignores the utility of "one" when used to supplant the third person.


You know, I never considered that.

Sorry for my falsehood and facilty. Wink
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 04:08 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
to supplant the third person.



does this mean I should put every third poster on ignore?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:07 pm
@Joe Nation,
That's a good one, Joe. Who says grammar has to be boring.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:08 pm
@Setanta,
McTag made two statements; which one are you referring to?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:15 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
If one wants to avoid gaffes in writing, one can simply choose the least complex expression.


That is a false and facile statement which ignores the fact that we choose any number of different collocations to express different meanings/nuances/registers.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:23 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Avoiding sexist language is not about linguistics.


That's the excuse that some of those who don't understand the history of English and English grammar have latched onto.

Quote:
The problem with the gender-neutral "he" isn't that it's bad English;


No, it was just badly analysed grammar, useless grammar, as there was a much more natural alternative.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 08:26 pm
@Roberta,
Quote:
I'm talking about what makes sense to ME.


Does " you are" referring to one person make sense to you, Roberta?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 08:37 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Avoiding sexist language is not about linguistics.


That's the excuse that some of those who don't understand the history of English and English grammar have latched onto.

Quote:
The problem with the gender-neutral "he" isn't that it's bad English;


No, it was just badly analysed grammar, useless grammar, as there was a much more natural alternative.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2012 05:56 pm
@Thomas,
I disagree with you Thomas. There are quite a few very credible writers who use the gender-neutral "he".

I don't think think there is a problem at all with the gender neutral "he". If all we had was this one gender neutral pronoun (without any gender specific pronouns) no one would think twice about it.

The real problem is that we have gender specific pronouns, i.e. "she", isn't it?

So let's just get rid of "she" and "her" rather than resorting to these ridiculous linguistic gymnastics.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2012 06:13 pm
@maxdancona,
In case I am not making this clear, I think this whole gender-neutral language movement is ridiculous. Language evolves slowly and naturally over time to meet the changing needs of the culture that contains it. The primary goal of language is communication, and English makes good use of "he" as a gender neutral pronoun. To artificially force an abrupt change in a language for political reasons is nonsense (which is why there is no real alternative to "he" that doesn't sound strained).

"To each his own" is very concise and easy to understand. It is hardly a sexist statement.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2012 09:20 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
To artificially force an abrupt change in a language for political reasons is nonsense


What is it that causes people to rush to display their ignorance on language issues, Max?

This silly rule was exactly that, an attempt to force an abrupt change in language for social/snotty reasons. It never took because people can't follow unnatural, forced, concocted rules. We all have natural rules of grammar in our brains.

Long before this bit of nonsense, this falsehood was invented, the English language had a better alternative, a much clearer, a much more sensible way to deal with this.

Quote:
The primary goal of language is communication, and English makes good use of "he" as a gender neutral pronoun.


Precisely, so why use a nonsensical, made up rule when there has always been a completely natural alternative.

Quote:
"To each his own" is very concise and easy to understand. It is hardly a sexist statement.


No one is suggesting that that phrase be abolished. The problem comes from people who have vainly tried to abolish an existing natural rule of English, which, of course, never works.

Quote:
Most of my fellow linguists, in fact, would say that it is absurd even to talk about a language changing for the better or the worse. When you have the historical picture before you, and can see how Indo-European gradually slipped into Germanic, Germanic into Anglo-Saxon, and Anglo-Saxon into the English of Chaucer, then Shakespeare, and then Henry James, the process of linguistic change seems as ineluctable and impersonal as continental drift.

From this Olympian point of view, not even the Norman invasion had much of an effect on the structure of the language, and all the tirades of all the grammarians since the Renaissance sound like the prattlings of landscape gardeners who hope by frantic efforts to keep Alaska from bumping into Asia.

http://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/correct/decline/


0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2012 11:04 am
@McTag,

I'm having some foggy second thoughts about this, about "one" being used to supplant the third person.

I think if "one" is used like that, it refers to "oneself" (usually or often in hypothesis). Is it therefore not really another form of first person?
 

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