6
   

Fine-Tuning 16, The Generic "He" and How to Avoid It

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jul, 2003 12:54 am
My own view has been to change phrasing. if appropriate, as opposed to come up with constructed words or phrases.

I agree that this is a temporary language challenge. Or I hope I agree that.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jul, 2003 02:37 am
Yes to both.
0 Replies
 
Roberta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jul, 2003 04:37 am
Kara, I managed to find one brief summary of one publisher's guidelines. It refers to an entire printed booklet (I think it's a booklet--not a whole book) on all manner of PC language, not just issues relating to gender.

It addresses the issue of the generic "he" by suggesting that the sentence be made plural. It addresses specific terms:

foreman=supervisor
salesman=salesperson
businessman=business executive or manager
man-hours=worker-hours

Etc.

Sorry that I couldn't find more. The purge is turning everything upside down. I hope I can find what I need when I resume working.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 05:32 pm
@Roberta,
Quote:
Dupre, I'm glad to learn that the editors at CMS have come to their senses. Let's face it. "They" ain't singular.


Just a quick note on the CMS. That is one terrible source for information on the grammar of English. The CMS [syntactically singular] asked an incompetent grammarian, Bryan Garner, to revise their section on grammar.

Quote:
February 02, 2005

THE CHICAGO MANUAL OF STYLE --- AND GRAMMAR
In the 1890s a proofreader working for the University of Chicago Press prepared a single sheet of guidance on typographic fundamentals and house style. It was augmented over time, and grew into a full style manual. The latest version was published in 2003 as the 15th edition of The Chicago Manual of Style. From the first sheet with printing on it to the last it has xviii + 958 = 976 pages, an increase in bulk of almost three orders of magnitude from that original information sheet. I finally ordered the 15th edition at the LSA book exhibit in January, when I saw that it included a new 93-page chapter on ‘Grammar and Usage’. My copy just arrived. Unfortunately, I now see, the new chapter does not represent an improvement.

The Chicago Manual of Style (CMS) is an unparalleled resource for those engaged in publishing, particularly of academic material. But the Press decided to farm out the topic of grammar and usage, and the writer they selected was Bryan A. Garner, a former associate editor of the Texas Law Review who now teaches at Southern Methodist University School of Law and has written several popular books on usage and style. His chapter is unfortunately full of repetitions of stupidities of the past tradition in English grammar — more of them than you could shake a stick at.

Presenting a representative sample would take a long time. Suffice it to say that on on page 177 he appears to claim that progressive clauses are always active (making clauses like Our premises are being renovated impossible); on page 179 he states that English verbs have seven inflected forms, including a present subjunctive, a past subjunctive, and an imperative (utter nonsense); on page 187 he reveals that (although he agrees, like every other grammarian, that the misnamed "split infinitive" is grammatical) he thinks that the adverb is "splitting the verb" in this construction (it isn't; it's between two separate words); on page 188 he describes word sequences like with reference to as "phrasal prepositions" (they aren't); and so it goes on and on. (I'm not asking you to just accept my word that these are analytical mistakes. Full argumentation on these points, and alternative analyses that make sense, can be found in The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, a work that was available in published form a full year before the Preface was added to the 15th edition of CMS. A few days of revision would have sufficed to remove the blunders from Garner's chapter.)

When the University of Chicago Press started on the revisions that led to CMS 15, they could have lifted the phone and made an on-campus call to the late, great James McCawley, a professor in the Department of Linguistics there throughout his long career, and an author of many books with the Press. They could have asked him for advice. They did not, clearly. McCawley knew the field of English syntax as well as anyone alive, and would perhaps have offered to do the chapter himself, or to read and critique the chapter when it was submitted, or to advise them on who might be chosen to do write it. But once again, people who had ample opportunity to get expert help in dealing with a quintessentially linguistic question of great importance made their decisions without (it seems) consulting anyone in the one field focused on matters linguistic. (I say "once again" because I'm thinking of Mark's recent masterful critique of the College Board and its ignorant policies in designing putative tests of grammar knowledge.) They commissioned a tired rehash of traditional grammar repeating centuries-old errors of analysis instead of trying to obtain a more up-to-date presentation. A real lost opportunity that has lessened the authority of a wonderful reference book, one that on topics from punctuation to citation to indexing to editing can really be trusted. Just avert your eyes from the grammar chapter; while not completely without merit (it moves on from Strunk and White), it just isn't trustworthy in the way the rest of the book is.

Posted by Geoffrey K. Pullum at February 2, 2005 12:40 PM

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001869.html



0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 05:46 pm
@Roberta,
Quote:
Let's face it. "They" ain't singular.



Though that's often been said, it's simply false, Roberta. 'they' is sometimes singular. History and the grammar of English clearly illustrate that.


Quote:
Everyone knows each other
April 26, 2008 @ 1:49 pm · Filed by Geoffrey K. Pullum under Prescriptivist Poppycock, singular "they"


"Everyone knows each other", said someone on BBC Radio 4 this morning, speaking about some tight-knit community. And instantly I saw that this was the key to a definitive argument against the logic of the opponents of singular they. I wonder if I can make you see how awesomely beautiful the insight is.

The -s suffix on the present-tense verb knows tells us that the subject is morphosyntactically singular. That is, it counts as singular for purposes of subject-verb agreement. But each other, famously, requires a semantically plural subject. That is why "They know each other" is grammatical and *"He knows each other" is not.

From this and nothing else it follows that semantic plurality and morphosyntactic singularity are compatible in English. No prescriptivist has suggested that there is something grammatically wrong with "Everyone knows each other". But because of that, the logical objection to singular 'they' just collapses. "Everyone knows themselves" has no grammatically relevant property that isn't already instantiated by "Everyone knows each other".


I recently discussed the ravings of the apparently half-mad David Gelernter's description of the consequences of singular they (which he falsely believes was a malign invention of feminists some time "since the 1970s"): he said that grammar simply "collapsed in a heap after agreement between subject and pronoun was declared to be optional." He means antecedent and pronoun. But there is no failure of agreement.

Syntactically, when 'everyone' is a subject it demands singular agreement on the verb of its clause; semantically, when it is an antecedent it denotes a collectivity of human beings and thus allows plural anaphoric elements.

Everyone, including Gelernter (surely), would agree that its meaning is fully compatible with plural predicates, so that "Everyone knew each other" is grammatical. What happens in "Everyone knows each other" is that you see a plural-requiring predicate and a singular verb in the same clause. And "Everyone knows themselves" simply illustrates the same point with a reflexive pronoun instead of a reciprocal.

Avoid singular 'they' if you want to; nobody is making you use it. But don't ever think that it is new (it goes back to early English centuries ago), or that it is illogical (there is no logical conflict between being syntactically singular and semantically plural), or that it is ungrammatical (it is used by the finest writers who ever used English, writers who uncontroversially knew what they were doing).

By the way, Arnold Zwicky points out to me that there are verbs like 'disperse' that can only have collectivity-denoting subjects, and this yields the possibility of cases where the anaphoric pronoun for 'everyone' must be 'they', like "Everyone dispersed when they heard the shots". He, like 'he' or 'she', would be simply unimaginable here.

This tells us that the logical case against singular-anteceded 'they' is really in tatters. Gelernter's reasoning has collapsed in a heap, one might say. If "Everyone dispersed when they heard the shots" is fine, why should we assume there would have to be anything logically or grammatically wrong with "Everyone gets out of the way when they hear gunshots" ?

If the evidence was clear that people never said such things, we grammarians would have to accept it, of course. But instead the evidence is that everyone says them all the time. So we have a logically impeccable construction that expert users of the language regularly employ and experienced listeners unhesitatingly accept. I wonder what more one would need to take something to be grammatical.

April 26, 2008 @ 1:49 pm · Filed by Geoffrey K. Pullum under Prescriptivist poppycock, singular "they"

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=89

dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 07:02 pm
@Roberta,
Purge?
0 Replies
 
Roberta
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 07:25 pm
@JTT,
JTT, "They" is never singular. But I agree that it sometimes takes a singular construction, especially in spoken language and occasionally in written language.

I'm currently editing a business book. I encountered something like, "The company is . . . They do . . ." I changed it to "It does . . ." and I thought of you and smiled. If it were a novel, I might have left it.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 07:36 pm
@Roberta,
Quote:
JTT, "They" is never singular.


Roberta, read the article, maybe twice or thrice. Address what was stated there. You simply are wrong.

See, a singular with a plural verb.

You [Roberta and DLowan] are wrong.

See, a plural with a plural verb.

But anyway, Professor Pullum offers irrefutable proof that the statement, "They" is never singular is false.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 08:42 pm
@Roberta,
Roberta wrote:
When a person makes a mistake, he or she should admit his or her error, learn from it, and move on.

This sounds awful to me! What's wrong with re-writing the sentence to avoid the personal pronoun altogether? "A person who makes a mistake should admit it, learn from it, and move on." That seems much less contorted.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2012 08:50 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
What's wrong with re-writing the sentence to avoid the personal pronoun altogether? "A person who makes a mistake should admit it, learn from it, and move on." That seems much less contorted.


That one is okay, Thomas, but there's no sensible reason for people to avoid a structure that is as natural as breathing.

To suggest that there are certain things we can't say in language because there is a rule that isn't a rule is complete and utter nonsense.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 12:01 am

If anyone doubts the veracity of this, they only have to reflect a little.

Good morning.
0 Replies
 
Roberta
 
  7  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 04:11 am
@JTT,
JTT, I read the article once. That was enough, thanks.

You can say that you're right and I'm wrong. I think we're having a difference of opinion. I could probably find experts who disagree with your experts. Not gonna do that.

I lack your passion for linguistics. Although I probably know more than the average person, I'm not an expert. And I don't care as much as you do about many things related to language. I get paid to avoid the "generic he," and I do it. I get paid to fix poorly written, poorly thought-out manuscripts, and I do it. I've been through three versions of health care (health care, health-care, healthcare), two versions of website (Web site, website), and countless other changes. Pay me. I'll do it.

You can quote to me from every expert you can find. You can survey the entire English-speaking population of the planet. You can throw everything at me that you choose to. I will not be moved.

Why? Several reasons. First, I'm a gigantic, stubborn pain in the ass.

Second, I don't care what anyone else has to say. My father often said that I march to my own drummer. My mother would say, "Drummer, nothing. She's got her own band."

Third, and the bottom line here. It makes no sense to ME. Period. "They" is a word that refers to more than one thing. Period. I will not be moved. I may ultimately have to follow along with your ideas if I'm paid to, but I will never agree. And I will probably mutter a dirty word every time I come to something that I don't like not changing.

C'est tout, kid.

McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 04:31 am
@Roberta,

Roberta, "they" is very commonly used as a singular to avoid having to write "he or she" every time.

You must have come across this umpteen times in your reading.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 04:44 am
I've not read through this thread, and i'm certainly not going to do it now. I would ask, what is wrong with "one?" I learned its use both in what i read and heard in speech from an early age. If one wants to avoid gaffes in writing, one can simply choose the least complex expression.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:23 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
To suggest that there are certain things we can't say in language because there is a rule that isn't a rule is complete and utter nonsense.

Avoiding sexist language is not about linguistics. It's about your credibility as a writer. The problem with the gender-neutral "he" isn't that it's bad English; it's that it harms the writer's credibility with readers (just as citing Garner harms the writers credibility with you.) Because I care about credibility with readers in general, I try to avoid the gender-neutral "he". (And if I cared about credibility with you, I'd avoid citing Garner as an authority, too.)

For what it's worth, I happen to know that Roberta's authority of choice is The Chicago Manual of Style. My copy of this book ---15th edition, section 5-43---says to rephrase the sentence. (Their example is: "Some child left a lunch box on the bus.")
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:37 am
@Roberta,
Quote:
JTT, I read the article once. That was enough, thanks.


No, it certainly wasn't enough, Roberta. You didn't understand what was said.

Quote:
You can say that you're right and I'm wrong. I think we're having a difference of opinion. I could probably find experts who disagree with your experts. Not gonna do that.


You can't find experts who disagree because those people are not experts. You don't want to find them because you'll immediately see that their arguments, such as they are, are fatuous.

As you can well imagine, I have studied this a great deal and it's ludicrous to call your "experts" experts. An expert in discussing issues from A2K, Thomas, knew quickly that these types of people, eg. Bryan Garner, are pseudo experts. Such has been the case with prescriptivists.

Quote:
Third, and the bottom line here. It makes no sense to ME. Period. "They" is a word that refers to more than one thing. Period. I will not be moved. I may ultimately have to follow along with your ideas if I'm paid to, but I will never agree. And I will probably mutter a dirty word every time I come to something that I don't like not changing.


Your first two "reasons" are awfully Setanta like. You say that "They" is a word that refers to more than one thing. and you are right, sometimes it does. Sometimes, it refers to

But what you are missing is that words like 'everyone' also refer to more than one person. They are notionally plural. You know that there is a problem here because you have spent some considerable time discussing it here. The solution, a completely reasonable one, has been available to English users for centuries.

People, like you, have simply avoided it for the same reason you are doing so, stubbornness. Not really a firm basis for resolving issues, is it?

Of course, you are free to continue as you want in your own editing, but don't try to pass off these prescriptions as rules that describe how the English language works.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:41 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
For what it's worth, I happen to know that Roberta's authority of choice is The Chicago Manual of Style. My copy of this book ---15th edition, section 5-43---says to rephrase the sentence. (Their example is: "Some child left a lunch box on the bus.")


So you immediately go to complete and utter nonsense to resolve this issue when there is a sensible alternative, Thomas.

And then, CMS for grammar, another ludicrous choice.
0 Replies
 
Roberta
 
  5  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:42 am
@Thomas,
McT, I haven't come across it much in my reading. I've come across it hundreds of times in my work. And, as Ive stated, I don't care how many times I come across it. I don't care what the majority says. I don't care what everybody says. I'm not talking about usage. I'm talking about what makes sense to ME.

set, There's nothing wrong with "one." It sounds distant and impersonal, but it ain't wrong.

Thomas wrote:

For what it's worth, I happen to know that Roberta's authority of choice is The Chicago Manual of Style. My copy of this book ---15th edition, section 5-43---says to rephrase the sentence. (Their example is: "Some child left a lunch box on the bus.")


Not my choice, Thomas. Every publisher I've ever worked for wants me to use that as the authority. And I do.

Also, the generic "he" may affect the writer's credibility, but I think the main purpose of avoiding it is to not piss anybody off.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:45 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
I've not read through this thread, and i'm certainly not going to do it now.


So what's new about that, Set. You never were willing to do the necessary research, do the thinking before you shot your mouth off about language. And you vociferously defended that position for others.

Quote:
I would ask, what is wrong with "one?"


It's a choice, but it's hardly the more natural one. One should realize that.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2012 06:48 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Avoiding sexist language is not about linguistics. It's about your credibility as a writer. The problem with the gender-neutral "he" isn't that it's bad English;


This isn't an issue of 'avoiding sexist language', Thomas. The issue is a linguistic one in that a badly devised, artificial rule was concocted a few centuries ago and pseudo experts like Garner perpetuated that nonsense. It's not the only one of course but it is one.
0 Replies
 
 

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